Busted into a class Charlie yesterday

[Thedude]

Yesterday I was flying south to ksba (Santa Barbara) on flight following with Santa Barbara approach. As I come over GVO I inform them of descending and they say "follow the freeway to make right traffic 25". Usually GA VFR traffic from the north west lands 15R, but 25 had better winds, so I follow the instruction and at about 3 miles from the airport and at TPA I'm handed over to tower who then berates me for entering their class C without talking to the tower. At this point I see there's traffic in the pattern for 15L and they have me do a 360 and enter right base for 15R. I get their phone number when I land because I'm confused and give them a call afterwards and they clarify I need to be in contact with the tower 10 miles out before entering the Charlie. I've never had this happen before and I assumed (likely incorrectly) that talking to the approach facility at an airport was sufficient to meet the class C communication requirements. Does anyone know the FARs and should I have stayed outside the class C before getting a hold of tower?

[47U]

1 hour ago, Thedude said:

so I follow the instruction and at about 3 miles from the airport and at TPA I'm handed over to tower

I think the tower should have a beef with approach control, not with you.  The Class C is replacing the Class D.  So I would think that Class C rules apply, which is communicate with the controlling facility, Santa Barbara Approach (within 20NM as the inset says).  It’d be nice if approach would coordinate with the tower, but that doesn’t always happen.  Are you supposed to tell approach that you need to switch to the tower because you’re about to enter Class D, which does not exist?

I’m speculating… but I would have done what you did.  One of the smart(er) people will be along soon to tell me the error of my ways. 

 

[Jackk]

If you were talking to approach and got handed off, yeah I think this is a “them” problem you were following their directions 

File a NASA, get a copy of the tapes (liveatc?), call the tower back as ask to talk to the supervisor, record everything, Someone screwed up and you are being taken for a ride 

Edited July 25 by Jackk

[MikeOH]

Yeah, approach screwed up IMHO and failed the 'behind the scenes' hand-off to tower.  I've had this happen once, and when tower got snarky I merely responded, "I contacted you as soon as approach HANDED ME OFF!". Nothing further was said

This wasn't on you.

[MooneyMitch]

Tower/approach control issue, nothing you did wrong.  Yes, file the NASA.   What you did was absolutely correct.  You followed directions from approach.  I've done that arrival many, many times, exactly as you described and never an issue. 

[toto]

1 hour ago, Thedude said:

I get their phone number when I land because I'm confused and give them a call afterwards

Just to clarify - they did *not* give you a Brasher, right? This was just you asking for the number to call because you wanted to talk to someone?

[Thedude]

1 minute ago, toto said:

Just to clarify - they did *not* give you a Brasher, right? This was just you asking for the number to call because you wanted to talk to someone?

Correct, I asked for it upon landing and exiting the runway. In the air, when I first contacted tower, after them yelling at me, I said I was on FF, they then said that didn't matter and I penetrated their airspace, then I said I was just handed off and their tone changed and everything was as if it didn't happen. Either way, I just wanted to focus on flying and stay off frequency so they could handle coordination. 

 

Thanks for the input here though, it feels a bit better knowing I didn't do something obviously wrong (and maybe not wrong at all) at the very least.

[MikeOH]

6 minutes ago, Thedude said:

then I said I was just handed off and their tone changed

BINGO!

I think approach 'forgot about you' as 3 miles is a little late for a handoff.  I've flown into SBA a bunch, and I've always been handed off to tower way before getting that close!

And, from the controllers' handbook, the following:

 

[N201MKTurbo]

For about six months I was flying to SBA about once a week. What you describe is the clearance I got almost every time. I would contact approach as usual and they would have me follow the freeway. They would hand me off to tower. I would contact the tower and all was normal. They hand me off at about the hill. I don't see anything you did wrong. The only requirements to enter the class C is radio contact with approach. I suppose you could have busted the class D by entering it without a clearance, but I always thought approach could give you that clearance. I think they screwed up.

[MooneyMitch]

Further thoughts.................my procedures on that arrival coming in over GVO, I would listen to ATIS first [whether on flight follow or not].  I would also monitor tower to listen to what's really going on regarding runways in use.  If I heard over tower frequency that small GA was landing/departing 15 and approach gave me 25, I would have questioned that with approach. 

I'm not suggesting this was your situation regarding what happened to you.

[MooneyMitch]

6 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I think approach 'forgot about you' as 3 miles is a little late for a handoff.  I've flown into SBA a bunch, and I've always been handed off to tower way before getting that close!

Agree.

[Thedude]

8 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

BINGO!

I think approach 'forgot about you' as 3 miles is a little late for a handoff.  I've flown into SBA a bunch, and I've always been handed off to tower way before getting that close!

And, from the controllers' handbook, the following:

 

That points to what the controllers are supposed to do, do you know where in the FARs it specifies what we're supposed to do, if anything?

Also why would he say he didn't care we were on FF... Ohh, maybe he thought we were handled off a while back and never chimed in on frequency? That could make a lot more sense.

They definitely forgot about me though and the fact that approach wanted me on right traffic 25 which put me on right base for 15R while there was traffic doing on pattern work on 15L shows a big lack of coordination. 

Edited July 25 by Thedude

[Thedude]

4 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

Further thoughts.................my procedures on that arrival coming in over GVO, I would listen to ATIS first [whether on flight follow or not].  I would also monitor tower to listen to what's really going on regarding runways in use.  If I heard over tower frequency that small GA was landing/departing 15 and approach gave me 25, I would have questioned that with approach. 

I'm not suggesting this was your situation regarding what happened to you.

Ya that's a smart idea, I'm going to adjust my procedures as you suggest here

[N201MKTurbo]

The only thing I would do differently is, instead of telling them you were on flight following, I would have said I was just handed off from approach.

[Hank]

1 minute ago, Thedude said:

They definitely forgot about me though 

I've been forgotten about on departure, but not on arrival. Nothing like being vectored toward a mountain you can't outclimb and never turned away or on course . . .

[Thedude]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

The only thing I would do differently is, instead of telling them you were on flight following, I would have said I was just handed off from approach.

Ya that would have been a much better thing to say. I was scrambling a bit as I was caught off guard.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 minute ago, Thedude said:

Ya that's a smart idea, I'm going to adjust my procedures as you suggest here

If I went in IFR I would get 25. VFR I would get 15. I would usually cancel IFR about 25 miles out because they would vector me out to sea and cost me 10 minutes of flying, so I usually landed VFR unless it was IMC.

[MooneyMitch]

One more thought for you.......................I've been in situations where I felt I was being ignored by ATC................when I felt that I would simply check in with my call sign and that would prompt the controller to respond, realizing they had indeed forgotten about me. 

[MooneyMitch]

Speaking of departures out of SBA , unless there was a lot of commercial going on with 25, I would ask for a 25 departure as I never enjoyed flying way out of the ocean with a 15 departure.  Many times when I did use 15, I was a couple of miles out over the water before I was given instruction to proceed on course.  Not my favorite by any means. 

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Thedude said:

then I said I was just handed off and their tone changed and everything was as if it didn't happen.

I used to fly out of KAPA, a very busy Class D under the Denver Class B. After a umber of VFR handoffs very close to and after entering the Delta, I became convinced at one point that Approach was purposely holding back a hand-off to mess with the Tower.  One day we were one of several airplanes returning to APA from a GA fly-in into DEN. (I'd do a picture but the APA Class D was revised this past year). Anyway, as we got closer to the Delta, I asked for the handoff. Approach gave me a disappointed sigh and approved the frequency change. I found out later that a number of the airplanes behind me took my lead and did the same. A depressing day for TRACON  . 

[Thedude]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

If I went in IFR I would get 25. VFR I would get 15. I would usually cancel IFR about 25 miles out because they would vector me out to sea and cost me 10 minutes of flying, so I usually landed VFR unless it was IMC.

Ya they do that to me too, I don't want to be out over the ocean, hence the FF instead of IFR

 

1 hour ago, MooneyMitch said:

One more thought for you.......................I've been in situations where I felt I was being ignored by ATC................when I felt that I would simply check in with my call sign and that would prompt the controller to respond, realizing they had indeed forgotten about me. 

I do that as well too, I could have been more proactive in engaging them here, but I don't think it was more than a couple minutes since I had talked to them last before handing me off. I may have been moving faster than they were expecting, idk

 

1 hour ago, MooneyMitch said:

Speaking of departures out of SBA , unless there was a lot of commercial going on with 25, I would ask for a 25 departure as I never enjoyed flying way out of the ocean with a 15 departure.  Many times when I did use 15, I was a couple of miles out over the water before I was given instruction to proceed on course.  Not my favorite by any means. 

That's a good idea. I hate getting sent out over the ocean for 10+ minutes. With that said, off the departure of 25 doesn't have a whole lot of hospitable landing areas either, SB is rough terrain all around.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I flew into GEG Spokane international a couple of weeks ago.  I was on flight following with Approach which handed me off 12-15 miles out to the tower.   So seems like this is what the tower wanted in your situation rather than approach directing you into the traffic pattern.    That’s understandable but they should save their anger for whoever was running approach.  Personally I’ve always considered approach, tower and ground to be different parts of one entity.  If I land and tower gives me taxi instructions as I clear the runway should I have to worry about being yelled at by ground for doing what I was instructed to do?   
 

How are we supposed to know tower hasn’t asked approach to send people into the traffic pattern for them?  If they aren’t then why are they not giving the handoff at the right time?  If this is how ATC operates then how are we supposed to trust them?   I get their jobs are difficult and I don’t expect perfection, but don’t blame the guy who did what you told him to do.  That just creates a toxic environment.  

[MB65E]

The Class Delta airports will hose you in Hawaii as well when talking with approach.

I was inside a Delta talking with approach and was asked by approach (sorry HCF) if I had contacted a delta tower, I said no I was talking with “you”. Approach then said yeah next time you need to contact Delta. 
Seems like there is a lack of guidance for sure. 

Oppositely,  I found it strange that flying past Burbank under the Charlie I was given an altitude restriction. The tower said altitude restriction deleted. I climbed out on schedule. Not being told to contact approach (still with tower) I climbed up through the Charlie. That wasn’t good either. The tower only controls the inner ring. Approach owns the outer ring. 
-Matt
 

 

[jlunseth]

This discussion has gone on forever, I don’t mean the discussion in the forum here, but the discussion about whether you can enter a Class B, C or D while on Flight Following, without meeting the airspace rules for contacting the tower or getting a clearance before entering. And the answer forever has always been the same. No, you cannot. It is your responsibility to contact FF and prompt them to hand you off, and/or do a 360. Will you get a violation? Unlikely. But it is your responsibility and not the controller’s to stay out of controlled airspace when VFR until specifically authorized to enter.

[dkkim73]

This is another area where IFR melts away the problems. 

Sounds like poor culture and practice on ATC's part, though.