Crosswind component

[PTK]

John thank you for sharing your wisdom. Your article was excellent by the way! It is always prudent and wise to recognize one's limitations. 

You would agree that 11 KIAS "demonstrated" crosswind component would render our airplanes useless most of the time! Especially for folks out of small fields with single runways! 

[jetdriven]

Sure, but exceeding that by. Factor of three by a 300 hour pilot is pretty damn foolish too.  Do your passengers have the same informed choice? 

[PTK]

I agree! But we all know anything can prove foolish for your hypothetical 300 hour or 6000 hour pilot! The 6000 hour is not immune to unfortunate mishapps. PIC means exactly what it says. The PIC is responsible for the safety of the flight. The passengers place their sacred trust in his/her ability to make appropriate decisions. Those decisions better be commensurate with their comfort level. Only the individual PIC knows what that is.

[jetdriven]

And the extra 5700 hours of experience counts for nothing, right?  No difference in skill or judgment?

[PTK]

Who ever said it doesn't!? Stop being so negative! Relax! Take a chill pill!

[Hank]

Byron--

Often the hours beyond the first two or three hundred in type contributes significantly to judgement and to hazard avoidance rather than to skill per se; that is often determined by recent experience. Personally, I've not flown in the last six weeks [which explains why I'm getting cranky], so my personal limits have adjusted upwards to compensate for the downward trend in skill. Or else I'd have flown yesterday . . .

Non-regular-flying passengers also raise my limits, to reduce uncertainty or trepidation on their part. Some normal things to us look and feel strange to non-flying people, especially crabbing in strong crosswind conditions [even at altitude] or mild turbulence [which they think will tear the plane apart]. But conditions change, and arrival weather doesn't always match forecasts, so it pays to practice and be prepared, as good alternates don't always exist.

My two last XC trips had strong crosswinds either there or here, back in April. The first time, I diverted from a 2770 x 30 strip with crosswinds gusting into the 20s to Greenville, SC, with 11,000' and plenty wide, and just accepted the extra 40-minutes driving time each way. Coming home into similar conditions, if I had problems coming down over the trees into our 3000 x 75 home field, there's a nice Class D just 4 nm away that is 6500 x 150, but it is angled 40º more northerly [30 vs home 26] and the wind was gusting more from the south with significant variation in direction [s to NW, half-sock to full-out, in less than one minute's observation from the ground].

Recent wind experience got me on the ground, although some timing with direction and gust strength was beneficial. A 10-kt gust while you are in ground effect can lead to a go-around if it's more than a brief gust, and since it ballooned me from 3' to ~20' agl nearly 1000 ft down the runway, I tried a second time and had no gust between flare and touchdown. Raise flaps, yoke back, brake gently, turn around carefully and remember to apply appropriate aileron/elevator while taxiing and significant crosswind correction while pushing back into the hangar.

Practice leads to skill; experience leads to judgement. The trick is maintaining a sufficient level of both. Lots of experience over any time period will improve judgement; lots of practice in a short period will give great skill; lots of experience over an extended time period will not necessarily yield the same skill level.

[N33GG]

Quote

 

Practice leads to skill; experience leads to judgement. The trick is maintaining a sufficient level of both. Lots of experience over any time period will improve judgement; lots of practice in a short period will give great skill; lots of experience over an extended time period will not necessarily yield the same skill level.

[PTK]

I'm curious as to what xwind component does rudder run out? Anyone know?

[kortopates]

Quote: allsmiles

I'm curious as to what xwind component does rudder fun out? Anyone know?

[aviatoreb]

Quote: N6719N

[Lood]

I'd like to apologise if I offended anybody, stepped on some toes or sounded arrogant with my "skill" statement. English is not my first language and it seems that I have expressed myself incorrectly by my choice of words. Experience and judgement is indeed what counts and the making the actual call to take on any cross wind will be the ultimate proof of that.

Personally, I have probably not landed in cross winds exceeding 20 - 25kt. That might not be the limit of my Mooney, but it certainly is my limit. The same goes for runway length. My Mooney can go shorter, but landing on anything shorter than 1600ft becomes a bit of a challenge to myself. The important thing is to know when to back off and if required, to do so in time rather than to push your luck. 

[johnggreen]

The last 8-10 or so post (along with others scattered about) in this thread have exhibited the kind of reasoned, restrained thought that creates and exemplifies good (meaning safe) pilots.

Sometimes I come across as a little harsh, but if you will look at those post with a unbiased eye, I only become "harsh" in the face of cavalier attitudes about pilotage.

Forgive me, again, I do not wish to insult, but at my point in life, I've seen lots of good pilots, lots of bad pilots, and lots of dead pilots.  I have lost several good friends and acquaintances to bad pilot judgement.

I've also seen truly incompetent pilots, with little skill and no real experience, endanger innocent people by their actions.  One of those actions is to claim knowledge and experience that they didn't have in front of "impressionalbe" low time pilots.  I have many times been left speechless as the stupidity and ignorance (there is a difference) of some of the "hangar talK' I have heard over the years.

Perhaps, some of my "attitude" comes from having my CFII.  No, it's no big deal, it doesn't make my Sky King, Bob Hoover, or Werner Von Braun.  It does impose upon me some responsibility to point out dangerous or inappropriate behaviour, I think.  So let's fly safe.  Let's be sure that our actions and words further responsible and safe pilotage.

OK, no more posts to this thread from me.  Thank all of you for your output and wisdom.  You said it, I just made you say it.

Jgreen

[231Pilot]

Quote: johnggreen

Perhaps, some of my "attitude" comes from having my CFII.  No, it's no big deal, it doesn't make my Sky King, Bob Hoover, or Werner Von Braun.  It does impose upon me some responsibility to point out dangerous or inappropriate behaviour, I think.  So let's fly safe.  Let's be sure that our actions and words further responsible and safe pilotage.

[N33GG]

Quote: allsmiles

I'm curious as to what xwind component does rudder run out? Anyone know?

[fantom]

Quote: N6719N

I hope this helps.

Be safe up there everybody!

 

Excellent post and thread! Lot's of invaluable information by seasoned instructors.

Thanks,

Gary

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: fantom

Excellent post and thread! Lot's of invaluable information by seasoned instructors.

Thanks,

Gary

[PTK]

Quote: N6719N

 Not to talk down to anyone, but I will treat this as an honest question, and for the benefit of anyone reading this forum that may be early on the learning curve of flying, here is a little information:

As stated in a previous post, what crosswind component the rudder runs out at depends on your aircraft, rudder, and airspeed over the rudder.  If you have no airspeed or prop blast, the rudder does nothing.  At 50kts, you have some rudder, 100kts more rudder, and 150kts even more, and so on.  The bigger the rudder, the more authority it will have.  How much authority the rudder has will indeed be limited by your airspeed.

So, if you want to land on a runway with a steady crosswind, a steady forward slip should keep your aircraft and landing gear aligned with the runway (opposite rudder away from the wind and aileron into the wind).  (WARNING: Remember to keep your airspeed up becuase stall speed will increase with any cross control situation.  You never want to stall any aircraft, and certainly not a Mooney, with the controls crossed and near the ground.  Gliders are very effective at slips and glider pilots should be especially careful if transitioning to powered aircraft before using extreme slips to landing.)  As you approach landing speed, if your rudder is maximum and you still cannot keep the aircraft straight with the runway, or you are drifting off the centerline, you have run out of rudder.  Now you have three options.  First, choose another runway or airport.  Second, land faster (diminishing choice as crosswind increases and runways shorten).  Third, land anyway, cross your fingers, hope for a break in the wind or less wind at the surface, maybe even kick the rudder at the last second, and let the tricicle gear and aircraft stresses take care of the rest (a vary bad option if you happen to be flying a taildragger... hence most but not all taildraggers tend to have more rudder).

Most aircraft that have a stated crosswind capability reflect about the steady direct crosswind speed at ground or runway level that can be flown and landed at normal landing speeds with adequate rudder authority. 

Anyone that wants to brush up your stick and rudder skills might consider some tail time.  Flying taildraggers will change your whole view of controlling whatever plane you are flying.  It will make you a better, more skilled pilot, and will likely impact your judgement when landing Mooneys in crosswind situations as well.

I hope this helps.

Be safe up there everybody!

[FloridaMan]

I like to take my feet, pick them up off the floor, and dance on the rudder pedals to wiggle the rudder back and forth on short final to ensure that I'm loose. That, combined with trying to hold the plane off the ground and continue to accelerate the yoke towards my lap as I touch down I've found has made greasing in landings, even in gusty crosswinds, infinitely easier. 

 

The rudder dancing also helps quite a bit with stalls. Supposedly a leading cause of people entering and then being unable to recover from spins is related to tense legs and inadequate application of the correct rudder, since they're pushing against a locked leg. Picking your feet up off the ground and wiggling the rudder ensure's you're not locked up. 

[Cris]

Quote

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As an instructor, everybody that comes to me wants to work on their skills.  Emphasis is always on pilot skill.  Well, most of us have plenty of skills to fly our airplanes.  Rarely does a lack of skill kill somebody, but a lack of judgement and poor decision making can put you in a situation that no level of skill can get you out of.  And nobody seems to want to work on their judgement and decision making.  Seems so basic to me.

Skills are indeed important.  But judgement, or lack thereof, can kill you regardless of your skills.

Well said! And judgement is the single most important thing that I look for when working with any pilot including myself!! I train with those that have more skill than me but look at them for not just their skills but for the judgement that they bring to a given situation. Sceanario based training is something that we often ignore or is not used but really helps especially with a student who is exhibiting some of the learning issues described in this thread. There is a common thread with successful people who transfer their professional success to flying an A/C. After the basics are learned they will often "assume" that since they are not questioned or should not be challenged in their professional life ie Doctor, Lawyer or Indian Chief subconsciously they "know best" and their judgement is often flawed as a result.Sceanario based training may offer an alternative approach to teaching judgement. In the end teaching judgement may be as simple as either you have it or you don't but I do know if you have had the pants scared off of you like John Green and lived to tell the tale you wil be a more cautions pilot. The trick is of course living to tell the tale.   

[romair]

Another question about crosswind. I was practicing some landings with a 10kt crosswind at 90 degrees. No gusts. After reading several threads it seems that the opinions are all over the place regarding how much flaps (if any), and what speed (faster or the usual). The method I was using was upwind wing down and maintaining centerline with rudder. No flaps. First I will definitely admit I was going way too fast - no passengers, less than half tanks - and doing around 82 kts over the numbers. This was definitely showed by how fast the plane kept on moving while on the runway. However, what really surprised me was the airplane dropping on the runway despite the rather fast airspeed - similar to flaring too high off the ground. There was no ballooning. I was power to idle, and kept on pulling on the yoke until maximum deflection, yet I still had some pretty hard landings (yes, I went and did it several times with similar results). I do know that I need better airspeed control...but I am wondering if landing in a forward slip configuration changes the stall speed to such extent that the airplane stops flying at higher airspeeds. Any advice is appreciated...

Stefan

1989 M20J

[Jeff_S]

No flaps in the Mooney does (at least) three things that I can think of. As you know, it means less drag and and therefore likely higher speeds. It also increases the stall speed. And it puts the airplane in a higher nose-up attitude for any given airspeed. So I theorize that you in fact were flying it too close to the edge (of stall) in your landing configuration, and any slight loss of wind speed or drop-off in airspeed could lead to the bottom dropping out.

 

You might try the same exercise with half-flaps and crossing the threshold at 75 KIAS maximum. That would naturally lower the nose, increase drag to lower speed, and give you more stall margin.

[Gone]

I remember some advice that Don Kaye once gave another Mooney bulletin board group (or it was perhaps on the MAPA site) and I have put it into my approach checklist.

 

______________________________________MPH_____KTS

Over Threshold (1.3 x VSO)                                   75            65

            Add 5 mph for each 10kt X-wind

            Subtract 5 mph for each 300 lb under MTOW

 

I normally approach full flaps with no crosswind. I normally use T/O flaps (2 pumps = 10 degrees) up to 10 knots crosswind component and I do not use flaps on any approach with more than 10 knots crosswind component.

[bd32322]

Another question about crosswind. I was practicing some landings with a 10kt crosswind at 90 degrees. No gusts. After reading several threads it seems that the opinions are all over the place regarding how much flaps (if any), and what speed (faster or the usual). The method I was using was upwind wing down and maintaining centerline with rudder. No flaps. First I will definitely admit I was going way too fast - no passengers, less than half tanks - and doing around 82 kts over the numbers. This was definitely showed by how fast the plane kept on moving while on the runway. However, what really surprised me was the airplane dropping on the runway despite the rather fast airspeed - similar to flaring too high off the ground. There was no ballooning. I was power to idle, and kept on pulling on the yoke until maximum deflection, yet I still had some pretty hard landings (yes, I went and did it several times with similar results). I do know that I need better airspeed control...but I am wondering if landing in a forward slip configuration changes the stall speed to such extent that the airplane stops flying at higher airspeeds. Any advice is appreciated...

Stefan

1989 M20J

If you reached max aft deflection of the wheel, you are probably stopping flying inches above the ground and then dropping a bit?

[M016576]

Another question about crosswind. I was practicing some landings with a 10kt crosswind at 90 degrees. No gusts. After reading several threads it seems that the opinions are all over the place regarding how much flaps (if any), and what speed (faster or the usual). The method I was using was upwind wing down and maintaining centerline with rudder. No flaps. First I will definitely admit I was going way too fast - no passengers, less than half tanks - and doing around 82 kts over the numbers. This was definitely showed by how fast the plane kept on moving while on the runway. However, what really surprised me was the airplane dropping on the runway despite the rather fast airspeed - similar to flaring too high off the ground. There was no ballooning. I was power to idle, and kept on pulling on the yoke until maximum deflection, yet I still had some pretty hard landings (yes, I went and did it several times with similar results). I do know that I need better airspeed control...but I am wondering if landing in a forward slip configuration changes the stall speed to such extent that the airplane stops flying at higher airspeeds. Any advice is appreciated...

Stefan

1989 M20J

Yes. Think about it this way- your wings aren't level anymore (that increases your stall speed at an exponential rate) and you're now adding asymmetrical drag as well.

Think about it from an aerodynamic stand point- on a basic level, a slip is increasing drag and decreasing lift without increasing thrust. To stay in stabilized flight, your descent vector must increase. When that occurs, if you maintain the same approach speed you were using for a 2.5-3 degree glide slope with wings level, and maintain the same glide slope, then you've compressed the number of degrees between your current angle of attack and the wings stalling Angle of Attack. Thus, you're flying closer to a stall, but at the same speed. It's the same principle as flying at 85 kts in a 60 degree level turn vs flying at 85 kts wings level- In one case you're dangerously close to stalling, in the other, you're "super fast." Airspeed alone won't tell you how close to stalling you are, only Angle of Attack does.

I should be careful talking about things like this- last time I brought up AOA, a couple of the pilots on this board dressed me down (apparently AOA is only a Fast Jet concept, not just a basic concept of aerodynamics). In light of that, my advise to you is to add a couple kts for the wife and kids and see what that gets you. It's imprecise, I know, but my previous recommendations regarding options to this issue were met with serious resistance.

Bring the heat, I know you guys are out there....

[aeromancfi]

Demonstrated Crosswind Component: I have operated a 1964 M20 C for 10 years and a 1965 M20E for 13.  Neither AFM or POH  has a listed value for max crosswind. My experience is that  both models run out of rudder in a cross wind and that is when it gets dangerous.  I once landed at Tucumcari NM iln a crosswind that was so strong that I made a diagonal landing from one side of the runway to the other. (Barely made it) 

 

Any body have any documentation from the Factory??   DS