Approach Configurations

[JLew]

Hi Folks. New to the forum. Airline driver who grew up GA.

Been experimenting with different configurations for flying various instrument approaches. With the low gear and even lower flap speeds on a 65 E model this becomes problematic. Gear almost always has to precede flaps. Nothing wrong with that, but thought I would solicit some input from the group. Here's what Ive come up with. Slow to 120 mph (VLE) prior to approach, prior to descent, gear down and 1800 RPM flaps up. Target 100 mph. (VFE) Once inside FAF, approach flaps (half) and target 90 mph until breaking out. That allows enough time to cross the fence at 80 mph. Thanks in advance.

J

[BrianWilkins]

What you’re describing is almost identical to my process with the exception that rather than target 1800 RPM, I’m usually prop full forward (high RPM) and about 17” MP. Otherwise, the speeds, etc are exactly what I do. 

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, JLew said:

Hi Folks. New to the forum. Airline driver who grew up GA.

Been experimenting with different configurations for flying various instrument approaches. With the low gear and even lower flap speeds on a 65 E model this becomes problematic. Gear almost always has to precede flaps. Nothing wrong with that, but thought I would solicit some input from the group. Here's what Ive come up with. Slow to 120 mph (VLE) prior to approach, prior to descent, gear down and 1800 RPM flaps up. Target 100 mph. (VFE) Once inside FAF, approach flaps (half) and target 90 mph until breaking out. That allows enough time to cross the fence at 80 mph. Thanks in advance.

J

I do exactly what you have as well.  There are others that might stay flaps up (but gear down) for two reasons:

1. In the event of MA, flaps down and full power can cause a lot of pitch up pressure. It’s not terrible with only TO flaps but you should practice it.

2. You can stay a little faster (~100) with flaps up on the ILS which might feel more stable.  Upon breaking out on glideslope, slowing down isn’t normally a problem (unlike your airliner).

After considering those, I do what you described.

[PeteMc]

Same thing for me.  Figure out the MP setting for your plane that will give you the speed you want in the descent with the gear down.  Then set for that power well before the FAF.  About a half dot before intercepting the GS/GP I drop the gear and you start down as you intercept the GS/GP.  

Then, as the others have said, when you break out you can easily adjust the power to slow and add flaps as needed. 

[M20F]

7 hours ago, JLew said:

Airline driver who grew up GA.

 

 A piston is much more impacted by power = altitude and pitch = speed than a jet due to its infinitely less power (though more responsive power).  
 
While it is possible to set and forget throttle/pitch on a piston, it isn’t probable. 

[47U]

13 hours ago, JLew said:

Once inside FAF, approach flaps (half) and target 90 mph until breaking out. That allows enough time to cross the fence at 80 mph

That works just fine, but the airplane lands with no issues flaps up, which simplifies a missed approach option.  I flew my practice approaches at 90 kts, which is above the flap speed.  No flaps approaches puts less stress on the aft center spar spice. Have you inspected for cracks IAW M20-217?  

[TaildraggerPilot]

I get a 3 degree glide path around 90 MPH with gear down, no flaps, full prop and 13.3 MP. 

Edited February 25 by TaildraggerPilot

[Utah20Gflyer]

100 mph and clean configuration before I get to the FAF.  For me this is 16” MAP.  When I need to start the descent I drop the gear and put in half flaps and get the plane configured for landing.  This will give me a 500 fpm decent rate which I fine tune with slight throttle changes. 

 After some practice I don’t have any issues making a normal landing from 200 AGL and 100 mph, although it usually requires chopping the power to idle and aggressively trimming nose up to get me to the 80 mph I’m looking for over the threshold.    The extra 20 mph is just the extra energy you need to maintain a consistent decent rate while also slowing down. 
 

[bigmo]

Yours (OP) and the others are all pretty great starting points to learn how your a/ c behaves. I generally fly RNAVs vice ILS. I keep speeds up and stay clean through the procedure turn. Once inbound, and 2 miles from the FAF, I go full prop and 17” MP, at a mile before, drop my gear, 1/2 flaps, and MP about 15” and trim for 90. At the FAF, I nose over, another inch off MP and it follows vertical guidance in a nice predictable manner about 85+. When I’m 5ish feet off the runway, I chop the power, hold the nose up a bit and just let it settle down on its own. I usually am a few hundred feet long, but can put it down if runways length is a concern (rarely is). This works to the point I never get off my vertical guidance and the plane feels stable at 85ish all the way in.

Ive made it a habit to check my gear light and floor indicator three more times inside the FAF. It’s just habbit.

[Pinecone]

Just realize those are all starting numbers.  Wind will require more power (headwind) or less (tailwind).

[Skates97]

These are my settings in my 65 M20D. They get you close and then adjust for wind as @Pinecone mentioned. I don't add flaps until after breaking out and then slowing to 100 (Vfe).

 

Approach Settings.xlsx

[TaildraggerPilot]

On 2/28/2025 at 9:40 AM, Pinecone said:

Just realize those are all starting numbers.  Wind will require more power (headwind) or less (tailwind).

Who times approaches anymore?

[Hank]

1 hour ago, TaildraggerPilot said:

Who times approaches anymore?

I don't remember seeing times on RNAVs, but they're still shown on ILS.

Having electric gear and flaps (Vg = 120 mph; Vfe = 125 mph), I can't give help on approach settings with the lower speeds; I fly to FAF with Takeoff Flaps, 16-17"/2300 @ 105 mph and drop gear 1-1/2 dots before intercept, then go down the glodeslope with no other changes.

[Skates97]

On 2/28/2025 at 6:40 AM, Pinecone said:

Just realize those are all starting numbers.  Wind will require more power (headwind) or less (tailwind).

3 hours ago, TaildraggerPilot said:

Who times approaches anymore?

Not sure what it has to do with timing an approach, but if you don't make power adjustments to compensate for varying winds you will not stay on the glideslope.

[Immelman]

The concepts that are noteworthy to me. Also airline driver

- It is easier, for me, to fly a good approach (precise control of heading/track) in our airplanes fast. Flaps up. Airplane is more stable, controls more stiff. If I am going to a long runway or will break out above say 500 feet I don't mind flying fast and dumping everything once visual.

- This doesn't work well for a low ceiling/viz or short runway.... need to be ready to land....

- Some of our airplanes have a red arc prohibiting continuous operation at certain RPM...which can have a nasty way of coming up in these exercises

Edited Sunday at 05:42 PM by Immelman

[bigmo]

It was lovely weather today and I had no honey do's - so I did some local flying. This thread made me really take note of my settings. I did two RNAV approaches today - ran the full approach with PT. I stuck with my standard two miles pre-FAF get configured routine (gear down and 1/2 flaps). 

Today, I left the AP's altitude hold on beyond the FAF and waited for the vertical guidance to come to me. When that happened, I chopped power to 14", trimmed for 90-95. Perfectly steady 500fpm descent and it put me right on the 1K footers and I was essentially hands off. Winds were 5-10 knots on my nose..

I always land 1/2 flaps, so as I got to mins, I just chopped the power and bled my speed closer to 80 for two greaser landings.

These are seriously easily airplanes to land if you do what it wants.

[Pinecone]

On 3/1/2025 at 3:22 PM, TaildraggerPilot said:

Who times approaches anymore?

Not for timing only.  But if your ground speed is less, you need less descent rate to track the glide slope.

If you have a tail wind (higher ground speed) you will need a higher descent rate.

Both conditions change the power setting.

[midlifeflyer]

On 3/1/2025 at 5:10 PM, Hank said:

I don't remember seeing times on RNAVs, but they're still shown on ILS.

Remember that the timing table is just a basic Time = Distance/Rate. You could write your own.

Since RNAV approaches have distance measurement, there is no timing table. For that matter, there is no timing table for an ILS either since the "MAP" is the DA, not a distance from the FAF.

[midlifeflyer]

On 3/1/2025 at 3:22 PM, TaildraggerPilot said:

Who times approaches anymore?

Kind of irrelevant to the discussion, but I flew with someone just recently who times every approach. He got into the habit at a way of not forgetting and it stuck with him. I stopped timing approaches after learning that the MAP is in the GPS even for a non-GPS approach. I figure if there was a widespread GPS failure and the only option was a VOR or LOC approach and the weather was anywhere near minimums, I'd be on my best behavior and remember to time it.