What Happens When A Commercial/CFI Rated Pilot "Claims" To FAA That He Put The Mooney Gear Down?.... Full NTSB Investigation!

[A64Pilot]

On 11/13/2024 at 10:04 AM, Pinecone said:

Even if the V speeds allow it, IMO, it is safer to do gear then flaps every time.  Build in a habit.

USAF was gear then flaps in the aircraft I flew.

Most aircraft out there approach flaps come first as they are allowed at a significantly higher airspeed than gear. There are always exceptions, J model Mooney’s being one.

What did you fly that gear came first?

I was taught in a school that had an FAA approved syllabus part number I forget, it was 36 years ago, anyway as their purpose was to teach upcoming airline pilots and not Mooney drivers they wouldn’t allow speed brakes to be used and flaps had to come first, which meant you had to slow to 110 kts before glide spoke intercept or you would not make the approach. Everyone learned, that’s why I say it’s not all that hard to get a Mooney slowed down, you just have to plan it is all, start earlier than say a Cessna 172.

Just looked it up part 141. https://www.ctcd.edu/academics/instructional-departments/aviation/

I went to this school Central Texas College in Killeen Tx to get my degree so that I could get promoted and stay in the Army until Retirement, and if I had to get a degree, why not in something I wanted.

Anyway slowing to flap speed first and not being allowed to use the speed brakes was annoying, but you got used to it pretty quick

[Pinecone]

T-37, T-38, A-10

Gear then flaps.

Actually Speed Brakes, then Gear, then Flaps.

And it was always full flaps, not intermediate settings for approach and landing.  Partial flaps was for take offs.

[Fly Boomer]

35 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Actually Speed Brakes, then Gear, then Flaps.

With a fairly low flap speed, seems the Mooney requires that sequence not take too long.  With the airplanes you mention, probably much more difficult to rip the flaps off.

[1980Mooney]

29 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

With a fairly low flap speed, seems the Mooney requires that sequence not take too long.  With the airplanes you mention, probably much more difficult to rip the flaps off.

I think you mean that Mooney’s only have “fairly low FULL (33 degrees) flap speed”. Mooney has never published a max speed limit (extension or retraction) in any POH for half or take-off flaps (15 degrees). VFE (Full 33 degrees) for an Acclaim is 110 KIAS and 115 KIAS for an M20J. 
 

I wonder if anyone has seen notes for half/take off/15 degree flaps from test pilots. But I can attest from 25 years of use, that the upper limit for half flaps is much, much higher. 

[Fly Boomer]

16 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

But I can attest from 25 years of use, that the upper limit for half flaps is much, much higher. 

Sounds like you may have experienced such an event.  

[dkkim73]

4 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

I think you mean that Mooney’s only have “fairly low FULL (33 degrees) flap speed”. Mooney has never published a max speed limit (extension or retraction) in any POH for half or take-off flaps (15 degrees). VFE (Full 33 degrees) for an Acclaim is 110 KIAS and 115 KIAS for an M20J. 
 

I wonder if anyone has seen notes for half/take off/15 degree flaps from test pilots. But I can attest from 25 years of use, that the upper limit for half flaps is much, much higher. 

I recall this coming up a few months ago and a few seasoned players were adamant that Vfe is for 10 degrees as well. Eg Acclaim

I do wonder how much had to do with demonstration and certification. 

[Hank]

No idea about long bodies, but this is what my Owners Manual says:

Note that it doesn't mention how far the flaps go, just don't lower the flaps above Vfe = 125mph, and don't go faster than that with them down.

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, dkkim73 said:

I recall this coming up a few months ago and a few seasoned players were adamant that Vfe is for 10 degrees as well. Eg Acclaim

I do wonder how much had to do with demonstration and certification. 

This has been discussed on Beechtalk for the Bonanza with much disagreement.  Considering that the Bonanza was commercially introduced shortly after WWII you would think that there would be no question,  Some Bo's only have 2 detents on the flap selector - Up and Full 30 deg. Down.  Some have an Approach 15 deg. detent in the middle.  Many argue that full flap Vfe is 123 KIAS and Approach (Half - 15 deg) is 153 - 157 KIAS.

Here is was the American Bonanza Society wrote a few years ago.

"Vfe is found in the Limitations section of the POH. Some POHs and Beech Owner’s Manuals state 
specifically that this is a maximum full flap extension speed. There is no guidance on the use of partial
flaps in handbooks that make this distinction. Most Beech POHs and Owner’s Manuals define Vfe as 
applicable to any flap extension at all.

Bonanzas with APPROACH flap preselect switches (12°-15° extension, depending on model and year) 
have a higher APPROACH flap extension speed, the same as the gear extension and operating speed 
(Vle/Vlo; see item 17 below). Full flaps are limited to the published Vfe speed in these airplanes.
Vfe is reduced in turbocharged airplanes above 20,000 feet. This speed is also listed in the Limitations 
section."

[Pinecone]

21 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

With a fairly low flap speed, seems the Mooney requires that sequence not take too long.  With the airplanes you mention, probably much more difficult to rip the flaps off.

Gear and flap speed on the T-38 was 240 KIAS.  In Air Training Command, we flew the pattern clean at 300 KIAS.  In Tactical Air Command (AT-38B) we flew them at 350 KIAS.  They may be robust, but not THAT robust.

But part if it is, if you always put the gear down first, you won't have much drag out and may notice.

[A64Pilot]

On 1/5/2025 at 12:29 PM, Pinecone said:

T-37, T-38, A-10

Gear then flaps.

Actually Speed Brakes, then Gear, then Flaps.

And it was always full flaps, not intermediate settings for approach and landing.  Partial flaps was for take offs.

All Military, I was speaking of civilian aircraft, but particularly larger Commercial and used the word most, because there are always exceptions, Mooney obviously being one.

 

[A64Pilot]

On 1/5/2025 at 2:44 PM, 1980Mooney said:

I wonder if anyone has seen notes for half/take off/15 degree flaps from test pilots. But I can attest from 25 years of use, that the upper limit for half flaps is much, much higher. 

If by that you mean once or rarely exceed that number won’t cause damage you’re certainly correct. 

I know someone in a J model that did a low pass close to VNE with the flaps in the T/O position and they weren’t harmed.

By mistake obviously.

Although CAR 3 doesn’t require fatigue to be calculated it does require that it “be considered” so one hopes that Mooney put the white arc where they did so that if obeyed you would get many years and thousands of flap actuations without undue fatigue damage.

I bet every Mooney out there has had the flaps stepped on too, but it really should be avoided.

On edit but it’s important to note that the limits on CAR 3 aircraft were set for new aircraft, there is no life limit in CAR 3 aircraft. My Mooney is old, I plan on keeping it until I can’t fly anymore and then pass it onto someone else. I think it prudent if you desire to keep something for a very long time that your personal limit is a little lower than the published limit. Your allowed to but I don’t cruise at 2700 RPM either for example.

It’s been my experience that the last few percent of performance come at the expense of longevity and within limits the further you back off the longer a component lasts. By within limits I mean I don’t cruise at 2000 RPM either.

 

Edited January 14 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

A couple of more things, it wouldn’t be Test Pilots you would want to hear from but the Structural Engineer who designed it.

Probably more often than not the weak link as in what gets damaged isn’t the flap but underlying structure, like maybe the aft spar? 

Edited January 14 by A64Pilot

[Hank]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Probably more often than not the weak link as in what gets damaged isn’t the flap but underlying structure, like maybe the aft spar? 

That varies by model and year. The hydraulic flap planes had a spar stub that was prone to cracking, but the whole flap mount changed in the late 60s. No idea what's in the "modern" birds, or the long bodies.

[AJ88V]

On 11/12/2024 at 4:29 PM, Hank said:

In my C, flaps are 125 mph and gear is 120 mph. I use flaps to slow down, and gear to descend. The Owners Manual says to not fly at or below 90 mph without flaps. So my goal VFR is flaps down NLT pattern entry, and (per the Manual), gear down abeam my intended point of landing, then reduce power as needed.

While the flap speed is higher (I also own a 1970 C model), I've always thought of that being useful for when you're climbing out and forget to retract flaps, so you're not doing any damage.  Fortunately, the plane just won't accelerate with takeoff flaps, so it's pretty easy to recognize when you do it! 

I usually deploy flaps at 100 mph on downwind abeam the numbers.  This puts less stress on the stub spar (a known problem on the earlier birds) and the flap motor.  (Note that retracting flaps at 125 is less stressful than deploying them at 125.)

The gear speed at 120 mph is a big help in the (later) C models to both slow down and act like poor-man's speedbrakes (LOL).  And even deploying gear at 120 should be the exception not the rule for those of us with the original "fast" 20:1 gear ratios.  Fortunately, doing the "Mooney hump" (ok, the electric gear version) of a quick pull on the yoke to dump speed lets you deploy the gear at a lower speed than the 120 max.

The point is, your flap and gear speed maximums are the limits of what you can do, but it's just gentler to deploy both at lower speeds.  My two cents.

[chunko]

M20B has a takeoff position only of 20.5 to 22.5 degrees.

All M20C through K are the same I believe: takeoff deflection is 15-16 degrees, landing is 31-33 degrees. (Although the shop manual for it seems to indicate that the M20D doesn't have a takeoff position. Never worked on one.)

M20M and R is 10-11 degrees, and 31-33 degrees.

M22 is 20 degrees and 34-36 degrees.

These are all compared to the neutral aileron position.

If the TCDS doesn't indicate a specific deflection level then V_fe applies to any flap extension. The Beech 1900 has different V_fe depending on whether its 14 degrees or 35 degrees, and it's certificated under 14 CFR 23.