What Happens When A Commercial/CFI Rated Pilot "Claims" To FAA That He Put The Mooney Gear Down?.... Full NTSB Investigation!

[A64Pilot]

On 11/13/2024 at 10:04 AM, Pinecone said:

Even if the V speeds allow it, IMO, it is safer to do gear then flaps every time.  Build in a habit.

USAF was gear then flaps in the aircraft I flew.

Most aircraft out there approach flaps come first as they are allowed at a significantly higher airspeed than gear. There are always exceptions, J model Mooney’s being one.

What did you fly that gear came first?

I was taught in a school that had an FAA approved syllabus part number I forget, it was 36 years ago, anyway as their purpose was to teach upcoming airline pilots and not Mooney drivers they wouldn’t allow speed brakes to be used and flaps had to come first, which meant you had to slow to 110 kts before glide spoke intercept or you would not make the approach. Everyone learned, that’s why I say it’s not all that hard to get a Mooney slowed down, you just have to plan it is all, start earlier than say a Cessna 172.

Just looked it up part 141. https://www.ctcd.edu/academics/instructional-departments/aviation/

I went to this school Central Texas College in Killeen Tx to get my degree so that I could get promoted and stay in the Army until Retirement, and if I had to get a degree, why not in something I wanted.

Anyway slowing to flap speed first and not being allowed to use the speed brakes was annoying, but you got used to it pretty quick

[Pinecone]

T-37, T-38, A-10

Gear then flaps.

Actually Speed Brakes, then Gear, then Flaps.

And it was always full flaps, not intermediate settings for approach and landing.  Partial flaps was for take offs.

[Fly Boomer]

35 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Actually Speed Brakes, then Gear, then Flaps.

With a fairly low flap speed, seems the Mooney requires that sequence not take too long.  With the airplanes you mention, probably much more difficult to rip the flaps off.

[1980Mooney]

29 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

With a fairly low flap speed, seems the Mooney requires that sequence not take too long.  With the airplanes you mention, probably much more difficult to rip the flaps off.

I think you mean that Mooney’s only have “fairly low FULL (33 degrees) flap speed”. Mooney has never published a max speed limit (extension or retraction) in any POH for half or take-off flaps (15 degrees). VFE (Full 33 degrees) for an Acclaim is 110 KIAS and 115 KIAS for an M20J. 
 

I wonder if anyone has seen notes for half/take off/15 degree flaps from test pilots. But I can attest from 25 years of use, that the upper limit for half flaps is much, much higher. 

[Fly Boomer]

16 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

But I can attest from 25 years of use, that the upper limit for half flaps is much, much higher. 

Sounds like you may have experienced such an event.  

[dkkim73]

4 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

I think you mean that Mooney’s only have “fairly low FULL (33 degrees) flap speed”. Mooney has never published a max speed limit (extension or retraction) in any POH for half or take-off flaps (15 degrees). VFE (Full 33 degrees) for an Acclaim is 110 KIAS and 115 KIAS for an M20J. 
 

I wonder if anyone has seen notes for half/take off/15 degree flaps from test pilots. But I can attest from 25 years of use, that the upper limit for half flaps is much, much higher. 

I recall this coming up a few months ago and a few seasoned players were adamant that Vfe is for 10 degrees as well. Eg Acclaim

I do wonder how much had to do with demonstration and certification. 

[Hank]

No idea about long bodies, but this is what my Owners Manual says:

Note that it doesn't mention how far the flaps go, just don't lower the flaps above Vfe = 125mph, and don't go faster than that with them down.

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, dkkim73 said:

I recall this coming up a few months ago and a few seasoned players were adamant that Vfe is for 10 degrees as well. Eg Acclaim

I do wonder how much had to do with demonstration and certification. 

This has been discussed on Beechtalk for the Bonanza with much disagreement.  Considering that the Bonanza was commercially introduced shortly after WWII you would think that there would be no question,  Some Bo's only have 2 detents on the flap selector - Up and Full 30 deg. Down.  Some have an Approach 15 deg. detent in the middle.  Many argue that full flap Vfe is 123 KIAS and Approach (Half - 15 deg) is 153 - 157 KIAS.

Here is was the American Bonanza Society wrote a few years ago.

"Vfe is found in the Limitations section of the POH. Some POHs and Beech Owner’s Manuals state 
specifically that this is a maximum full flap extension speed. There is no guidance on the use of partial
flaps in handbooks that make this distinction. Most Beech POHs and Owner’s Manuals define Vfe as 
applicable to any flap extension at all.

Bonanzas with APPROACH flap preselect switches (12°-15° extension, depending on model and year) 
have a higher APPROACH flap extension speed, the same as the gear extension and operating speed 
(Vle/Vlo; see item 17 below). Full flaps are limited to the published Vfe speed in these airplanes.
Vfe is reduced in turbocharged airplanes above 20,000 feet. This speed is also listed in the Limitations 
section."

[Pinecone]

21 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

With a fairly low flap speed, seems the Mooney requires that sequence not take too long.  With the airplanes you mention, probably much more difficult to rip the flaps off.

Gear and flap speed on the T-38 was 240 KIAS.  In Air Training Command, we flew the pattern clean at 300 KIAS.  In Tactical Air Command (AT-38B) we flew them at 350 KIAS.  They may be robust, but not THAT robust.

But part if it is, if you always put the gear down first, you won't have much drag out and may notice.