AV-30 vs. Garmin 275 vs. Garmin G5 vs. ______

[wolfbyte]

Hey all, just wanted to get your take on what you would recommend for a modest avionics upgrade. I would like to condense all instruments down into 2 or 3 digital counterparts as the primary. I would like to avoid a major overhaul of the panel if possible, so ideally looking for solutions that will slot in with as little work as possible. 

I heard not so good things about the AV-30 from the previous owner who's a mechanic and said they had a lot of issues with their school fleet using them, so that more or less leaves me with the Garmins, unless there's another solution I'm missing.

I am leaning more towards the 275 for the engine monitor version, as I would also like to get a JPI or some other digital engine monitoring system installed alongside it all.

Any recommendations or experiences you can share with any of the mentioned products, or something that might fit the bill would be greatly appreciated.

Bonus points if you have a good avionics shop in the Midwest (I'm based out of Indiana) you could refer! Also, does it make way more sense to hold off on the purchase and  just wait for Oshkosh when it's more than likely there will be deeper discounts, or is the trade off with that busier shops and greatly delayed installation dates?

[bigmo]

I'm doing sort of the final details with a avionics installer that's taking on some side work. For me, I'm going with a single AV-30C (with temp sensor). It does everything I want/need. My a/c is really well equipped, but I want to clean up the six pack and the left side of my panel. I do agree the AV-30 got a bit of a bad rep when it first came out, but they appear to have them sussed out now and I have zero complaints with a few hours behind one. When flush mounted, they look outstanding.

A few things I've learned in this process. Shops are backed up, and are not super keen to do small jobs. By small, I mean less than $50K. Most will just say that they're backed up for 12-18 months or respond with a crazy $ amount. A few years ago, you could generally assume about a 1:1 parity for avionics equipment cost and installation. Those days appear to be gone. A few years ago, you could get a pair of G5s installed for about $8-9K. The quotes I got for just those two were a low of $15K and a high of $22K (yes, $16K in labor).

I decided to scope down my project since my DG/bug works well with my GNS and GPSS. So with a single AI (the AV30), a new left panel cut, rearranging my six pack a bit, and some new post lighting - all in for $5K cash. I can live with that and it gives me a nice clean and functional look.

As soon as you get into a new digital HSI, and engine monitor...prepare for sticker shock. Just to add some basics, you'll be shocked how quickly you hit the $25K, $30K or even $40K mark. I'm fortunate that I have a good engine monitor, WAAS GPS, and an AP that works great. So my work is sort of polishing vs painting - if that makes sense.

 

 

[Vance Harral]

Contrary to some of their other gizmos, Garmin sells and publishes installation manuals for the G5 and GI-275 to end users; and the nature of the STC is such that the devices can be installed by an A&P, some of whom are amicable to supervising an owner doing the work.  This is frequently a bad idea, leading to terrible installations (e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/avionics/comments/yj8101/another_bad_g5_install/).  But if you and your A&P are very comfortable with electronics technician skills, and willing to carefully read and meticulously follow the entire installation manual, it's a way to work around the presently exorbitant cost and lead time of having an avionics shop do it.  The devices and the wiring/tools to install them can be purchased from several vendors (https://www.steinair.com is my favorite, but no affiliation, just a satisfied customer).  Be sure to purchase the certified version of the instrument that comes with an STC download, not the cheaper version that is only legal in experimental aircraft.

As for the units themselves, I have a lot of time flying with dual G5s, and a little time with the GI-275.  The GI-275 has more features, a higher resolution display, and requires no physical panel modifications in the average vintage Mooney.  The EIS version of the -275 provides engine monitor functionality, and can make for a cosmetically attractive panel along with the ADI and HSI flavors if you go all-in on Garmin.  People who have the -275 seem very satisfied.  But I think it's not a no-brainer choice, partly due to higher cost and shorter battery life vs. the G5, and partly due to the fact the physically smaller display with more stuff on it can appear cramped to those of us with aging eyes.

The G5 gets you a simpler and physically larger display that I find easier on the eye in use, despite its lower resolution.  It also saves you on the order of 1 AMU per unit vs. the GI-275, and the square form factor is arguably a nicer cosmetic match for the higher end JPI/EI engine monitors if that's your preference.  But before you get too excited about that, take a look at your physical panel.  In a lot of vintage Mooneys, a dual G5 ADI/HSI setup in the standard six-pack locations requires slightly ovaling out the panel holes with a file, due to clearance issues.  Also, the lower-right-side physical knob of the G5 HSI often winds up close to the yoke shaft in kind of an awkward position.  Those issues are mitigated if you cut a big rectangle in the panel and flush mount them, but then you have the extra time/expense/hassle of the flush mount and the panel cut to accommodate it.

Bottom line, I'm sure you'd be happy with either, but this is not one of those cases where it's a no-brainer to go with the newer instrument.  Suggest printing out some life-size, life-resolution pictures of each, and taping them to your panel, to see what it looks and feels like from the pilot's seat.

[Jake@BevanAviation]

You might want to provide a panel picture of the current layout.  Inter-connectivity is huge when trying to plan a panel upgrade.  Some devices only take certain signals from navigators like ARINC 429 or RS 232 (example G5 to GNS430W).  Others can take analog signals from legacy navigators (example GI275 to KX155). Some manufactures play better with legacy equipment vs others.  If you have a legacy autopilot you defiantly want to make sure the new equipment can provide all the signals the legacy autopilot system needs. 

To be completely honest, we are mostly a Garmin shop. We have done several installs of G5's, GI275's and G3X's in Mooney's. Some customers have got Aspen's as an alternative. We rarely put in the AV-30C due to the units limitations.  However, if it fits the scope of the job it is a viable alternative.  Using the 1:1 ratio of equipment to labor is pretty good to get you in the ball park of installation cost.  We tend to be about 65-80% of equipment cost for labor/parts depending on the complexity of the job.  If you have questions about the inter-connectivity of the ship give me a call or a PM and I will help as much as I can.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I think the Uavionix products are acceptable with the addition of a magnetometer which I think is still in the approval process for certified planes.   So maybe not quite ready for prime time but getting close.  
 

I did two GI275s and they are great.  I like that two of them replaces the entire 6 pack.  The AV30 and G5 you only get to replace 2 instruments and have to keep the other 4 legacy instruments.   I like the idea of getting rid of things that have to be maintained.   I did keep my airspeed indicator but got rid of the others and created room for a panel mounted I phone max that I display foreflight on.  

[wolfbyte]

2 hours ago, Jake@BevanAviation said:

You might want to provide a panel picture of the current layout.  Inter-connectivity is huge when trying to plan a panel upgrade.  Some devices only take certain signals from navigators like ARINC 429 or RS 232 (example G5 to GNS430W).  Others can take analog signals from legacy navigators (example GI275 to KX155). Some manufactures play better with legacy equipment vs others.  If you have a legacy autopilot you defiantly want to make sure the new equipment can provide all the signals the legacy autopilot system needs. 

To be completely honest, we are mostly a Garmin shop. We have done several installs of G5's, GI275's and G3X's in Mooney's. Some customers have got Aspen's as an alternative. We rarely put in the AV-30C due to the units limitations.  However, if it fits the scope of the job it is a viable alternative.  Using the 1:1 ratio of equipment to labor is pretty good to get you in the ball park of installation cost.  We tend to be about 65-80% of equipment cost for labor/parts depending on the complexity of the job.  If you have questions about the inter-connectivity of the ship give me a call or a PM and I will help as much as I can.

Here is the full panel I'm currently working with. 

I will reach out tomorrow and seek your advice, recommendations and viability. Thanks!

[wolfbyte]

2 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I think the Uavionix products are acceptable with the addition of a magnetometer which I think is still in the approval process for certified planes.   So maybe not quite ready for prime time but getting close.  
 

I did two GI275s and they are great.  I like that two of them replaces the entire 6 pack.  The AV30 and G5 you only get to replace 2 instruments and have to keep the other 4 legacy instruments.   I like the idea of getting rid of things that have to be maintained.   I did keep my airspeed indicator but got rid of the others and created room for a panel mounted I phone max that I display foreflight on.  

That is why I am leaning towards the 275, despite it being a little more, you get more functionality in the sense that it can replace more in less. Right now my scan is practically across the entire width of the cabin; so reducing that travel distance will be more efficient and safer in the long run. Thanks for weighing in!

[Utah20Gflyer]

47 minutes ago, wolfbyte said:

That is why I am leaning towards the 275, despite it being a little more, you get more functionality in the sense that it can replace more in less. Right now my scan is practically across the entire width of the cabin; so reducing that travel distance will be more efficient and safer in the long run. Thanks for weighing in!

Yeah, my instrument scan is just going back and forth between the two GI275s.   
 

The HSI is awesome.  Makes holds, procedure turns , DME arcs , etc easy.  I couldn’t imagine going back to a heading indicator now.  
 

Overall very happy with the upgrade. 
 

 

[McMooney]

most capable are the gi 275s, they can be primary for everything, meaning you can take everything else out of the panel.

In your case, you could potentially get 3x gi 275s, ai, hsi, eis  and remove Everything else except for the annunciators and buttons basically.

 

I'd recommend Alex, Horizon Avionics@KTYS,  knoxville

They installed a new GNC355A for me in 4 days, and wasn't horribly priced.   Great work, haven't had an issue with it

[Utah20Gflyer]

10 hours ago, wolfbyte said:

Here is the full panel I'm currently working with. 

I will reach out tomorrow and seek your advice, recommendations and viability. Thanks!

Another benefit of the GI 275 HSI is you can run older  non Garmin radios into it.  This would allow you to get rid of the CDIs as well if you wanted to.   The G5 is much more limited in that area. 
 

I did my upgrades in stages and initially I had a KX 175B ran into it and it worked fine.   Later I switched to a Garmin 255.  
 

I’d consider getting a new pilots side panel cut out since the current one will have to come out completely for the upgrade anyway.   It’s a relatively affordable time to do it and it will modernize the look significantly. 

[wolfbyte]

5 hours ago, McMooney said:

most capable are the gi 275s, they can be primary for everything, meaning you can take everything else out of the panel.

In your case, you could potentially get 3x gi 275s, ai, hsi, eis  and remove Everything else except for the annunciators and buttons basically.

 

I'd recommend Alex, Horizon Avionics@KTYS,  knoxville

They installed a new GNC355A for me in 4 days, and wasn't horribly priced.   Great work, haven't had an issue with it

Thank you for the recommendation! The places I have reached out to have been a little unreasonable in my opinion, but it could also be my lack of understanding on it all and it's just sticker shock (I don't think 3 instruments is worth $40k in labor alone in my opinion...); certainly willing to pay for quality work, but want a fair price, all things considered. If a shop is gouging just to fit you in, not worth it for me.

[Vance Harral]

19 hours ago, wolfbyte said:

Here is the full panel I'm currently working with. 

Kudos to @Jake@BevanAviation for replying, you should weigh anything he has to say more heavily than anything I have to say.  He's a pro and I'm a rank amateur.

Having said that, note that the G5 clearance and yoke shaft issues I mentioned wouldn't be an issue in your panel if you leave it as-is rather than cutting a new one.  You could also get full connectivity of your STEC autopilot and your GNC355 to a pair of G5s, though doing so would require a GAD29C interface box which retails for about $500 and requires a little extra wiring.  Not trying to steer you away from the GI-275, just making sure you know the G5 is definitely a capable option that would save you a little money.  Exactly how much is hard to say, especially if you contract with an avionics shop - you just have to get quotes and see.  For a little while when the GI-275 was new, shops seemed to be quoting more labor to install it vs. the G5, even though the actual installation complexity was the same or less.  My guess is that was a temporary thing that's no longer true.  Maybe a little what-the-market-will-bear-for-new-toys, and a little uncertainty when the shops hadn't yet done many installations.

[DCarlton]

23 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I installed an AV-30C in my Mooney a few months ago, doing everything myself from building a wiring harness to update the unit’s firmware prior to installation to pinning out and building the 15 pin D-Sub connector and wiring harness and installing the circuit breaker and OAT probe and making the GPS, audio panel, and pitot and static connections.  It was a simple process and just works, just like installing uAvionix’s tailBeacon was a few years ago.  No complaints and very DIY friendly.  With IA oversight, obviously.  It was a great fit for my relatively simple needs. 

I didn't study this entire thread; just quickly adding that an AV30 was installed in my F this past summer in the AI position with a GPS data interface to my GNS (that was by far the hardest part of the install; getting the RS232 wire/pin added to the GNS harness).  No complaints; I'm impressed given the price of the unit.  Just don't plan on depending on the DG indication without an external magnetometer.  The screens are highly configurable and the DG heading readout is an option on one of the screens even if locked in the AI configuration (as for certified aircraft).  I'm hoping to add a magnetometer down the road; the DG heading could be handy.  

[bigmo]

2 hours ago, DCarlton said:

I didn't study this entire thread; just quickly adding that an AV30 was installed in my F this past summer in the AI position with a GPS data interface to my GNS (that was by far the hardest part of the install; getting the RS232 wire/pin added to the GNS harness).  No complaints; I'm impressed given the price of the unit.  Just don't plan on depending on the DG indication without an external magnetometer.  The screens are highly configurable and the DG heading readout is an option on one of the screens even if locked in the AI configuration (as for certified aircraft).  I'm hoping to add a magnetometer down the road; the DG heading could be handy.  

Not intending to hijack the thread - but what functionality does the GPS signal to the AI add? Is that for the "backup DG" or perhaps ground speed? Looking through the install manual now and it just says optional. I do see a matrix on page 18 of the install manual, but it's not clear what that GPS signal enables.

 

[EricJ]

11 minutes ago, bigmo said:

Not intending to hijack the thread - but what functionality does the GPS signal to the AI add? Is that for the "backup DG" or perhaps ground speed? Looking through the install manual now and it just says optional. I do see a matrix on page 18 of the install manual, but it's not clear what that GPS signal enables.

 

The digital AIs show both lateral and vertical guidance provided by the GPS unit that knows the flight plan, waypoints, approach, etc.

Edit: NM, it looks like on the AV-30 it just drives the heading/track indicator.    In HSI mode it provides lateral guidance.

[bigmo]

I got deeper in the manual (and a beer) and it appears that the GPS signal fed to the AI shows some basic text only info from the GPS (ground speed, track, distance, etc.). So, not a big add for my equipment. But a nice feature if one wants that info at the ready (and not glancing down to the navigator).

[DCarlton]

16 hours ago, bigmo said:

Not intending to hijack the thread - but what functionality does the GPS signal to the AI add? Is that for the "backup DG" or perhaps ground speed? Looking through the install manual now and it just says optional. I do see a matrix on page 18 of the install manual, but it's not clear what that GPS signal enables.

 

Attached is the feature list from the AV30C install manual.  Note the required interface column.  You have three screens to choose from that are configurable in addition to the traditional AI display.  I have yet to settle on the optimum configuration for each screen.  Density altitude is great to display prior to take off for example.  Other options may be better for climb and cruise.  

Note:  I was surprised to see the DG Tape show up as an option in the AI configuration if a magnetometer is not installed.  I believe an external mag is required now to use the AV30C as a DG.  It almost seems like an oversight.  It would be very handy to have an accurate DG tape though.  With so many sources of heading information, that don't always agree perfectly, having a no fuss DG tape display would be helpful.  Otherwise, I trust my compass as ground truth.  

AV30 FEATURES.pdf

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

uAvionix’s magnetometer, which they call their AV-Mag, was certified a year and a half ago, in April of 2023.  When I was planning out my AV-30 installation I purchased a digital angle locator in anticipation of installing one, but I haven’t felt the need yet.  We’ll see.  I think the more recent firmware updates have helped in this regard as well. I’d be very interested in hearing the details of any AV-Mag installation in a Mooney.  

I'm planning to install one this winter when I remove the interior side panels to replace the fuel gages.  A good time to run the wires.  

[Shadrach]

On 10/17/2024 at 2:23 PM, bigmo said:

The quotes I got for just those two were a low of $15K and a high of $22K (yes, $16K in labor).

Wow…$8,000 to install a $3000, 3 1/8” instrument?   Pretty sure I could do a double G5 install in under a week.  But let’s say a week. So to justify paying that avionics shop to do it, I would need to take home $400hr or $832k a year.  Perhaps someday I will take home $400 hr, but that day has not yet arrived.

[MikeOH]

32 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Wow…$8,000 to install a $3000, 3 1/8” instrument?   Pretty sure I could do a double G5 install in under a week.  But let’s say a week. So to justify paying that avionics shop to do it, I would need to take home $400hr or $832k a year.  Perhaps someday I will take home $400 hr, but that day has not yet arrived.

Holy cow!

How many wires come out of ONE G5?  A couple hundred, at least, based on that amount of labor!

[Vance Harral]

18 hours ago, MikeOH said:

How many wires come out of ONE G5?

Not trying to justify the shop's quote, but if you're installing a G5 HSI, the G5 unit and its 4 connections (pitot, static, CANBUS, RS-232 or GPS antenna) is only a fraction of the work.

If you want the HSI to actually show heading you have to mount and wire a magnetometer, and if you want it to show nav information, you have to interface it to a navigator, which is a multi-wire thing that almost always has to be done through a GAD29 box that you have to mount somewhere.  There's an OAT probe option which gives you true airspeed data that may be in the shop quote.  If you want altitude data sent to the transponder for serial altitude encoding, that's another G5 -> GAD29 -> transponder connection.  Autopilot interface is another GAD29 connection.  All this stuff involves disassembling existing connectors and adding additional pins to them.

The mechanical mounting of the magnetometer and GAD is some of the work, and the addition of pins/crimps/solder joints to connect up the nav box and transponder and OAT probe is quite a lot of work.  And while we joke a little about the "Mooney tax", the tight space behind the panel in the average Mooney really does make the job worse.  You have to build a shelf behind the panel for the GAD29, or alternatively put it in the tail cone and remove the interior to run the wiring up to the panel.

19 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Pretty sure I could do a double G5 install in under a week.

That's what I thought too, but it took me a little over two weeks of working more-or less full time (not including weekends).  I'm slow, though, and of course it goes faster if you've done it before.  Again, not trying to justify the shop's quote, which I agree sounds exorbitant even at 80+ hours of labor.

But bottom line, there's a big difference between an ADI vs. an HSI installation for any of the G5/GI-275/AV-30.  Again, @Jake@BevanAviation hit the nail on the head when he pointed out that it's all about the connectivity you want, and that's mostly on the HSI side.  You can whittle down the cost by connecting less stuff, but only at the tradeoff of reduced capability.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Vance Harral said:

Not trying to justify the shop's quote, but if you're installing a G5 HSI, the G5 unit and its 4 connections (pitot, static, CANBUS, RS-232 or GPS antenna) is only a fraction of the work.

If you want the HSI to actually show heading you have to mount and wire a magnetometer, and if you want it to show nav information, you have to interface it to a navigator, which is a multi-wire thing that almost always has to be done through a GAD29 box that you have to mount somewhere.  There's an OAT probe option which gives you true airspeed data that may be in the shop quote.  If you want altitude data sent to the transponder for serial altitude encoding, that's another G5 -> GAD29 -> transponder connection.  Autopilot interface is another GAD29 connection.  All this stuff involves disassembling existing connectors and adding additional pins to them.

The mechanical mounting of the magnetometer and GAD is some of the work, and the addition of pins/crimps/solder joints to connect up the nav box and transponder and OAT probe is quite a lot of work.  And while we joke a little about the "Mooney tax", the tight space behind the panel in the average Mooney really does make the job worse.  You have to build a shelf behind the panel for the GAD29, or alternatively put it in the tail cone and remove the interior to run the wiring up to the panel.

That's what I thought too, but it took me a little over two weeks of working more-or less full time (not including weekends).  I'm slow, though, and of course it goes faster if you've done it before.  Again, not trying to justify the shop's quote, which I agree sounds exorbitant even at 80+ hours of labor.

But bottom line, there's a big difference between an ADI vs. an HSI installation for any of the G5/GI-275/AV-30.  Again, @Jake@BevanAviation hit the nail on the head when he pointed out that it's all about the connectivity you want, and that's mostly on the HSI side.  You can whittle down the cost by connecting less stuff, but only at the tradeoff of reduced capability.

I can see how that might happen. Things rarely go as fast as you want them to. There are almost always unknown obstacles to contend with.
I can crimp terminals and pins as well as build harnesses, but I have an IA friend that can run circles around me in terms of time, so I leverage that skillset. I was basing my estimate on my ADSB install which took well under 8hrs. IA spent about three hours on the tray and harness and I spent about 4hrs running wire and mounting new antenna. At the end of the day, the total labor for the install came to about $400 but that included a nice tip on top of what he asked for. There are plenty of guys on my field that waited months and spent 2-3K in labor to have a box installed. Maybe someday that will seem like a reasonable value. Currently, it does not.

[Pinecone]

The FBO on my field have standardized on 2x G-5s, JPI and GNS-430 for their training fleet.

They work well for first flight to commercial.  And not bad as rentals.

[Vance Harral]

16 hours ago, Pinecone said:

The FBO on my field have standardized on 2x G-5s, JPI and GNS-430 for their training fleet.

Almost the same at the flight school where I teach, except for better or worse, no engine monitor, just traditional single-cylinder CHT/EGT.

But 2x G5 and GNS-430 seems to be a common standard for the time being, for reasonably equipped for IFR (including actual IMC).  I wouldn't hesitate to take such an airplane into any weather the airframe itself is capable of handling.

[EricJ]

21 hours ago, Pinecone said:

The FBO on my field have standardized on 2x G-5s, JPI and GNS-430 for their training fleet.

They work well for first flight to commercial.  And not bad as rentals.

My airplane has 2 G5s, aJPI-900 and an Avidyine 540.   I think it's a great setup with a lot of advantages, including keeping the basic air instruments.   You can do a normal six-pack scan OR a PFD/HSI scan or both or whatever.   The G5s and the JPI and the Avidyne all talk to each other and integrate really well.