Seizure of Mooney M20E on tribal lands

[DXB]

Wow! This articulate and earnest-sounding guy flies an M20E and documents his outdoors adventures on YouTube.  He shares a rivetingly bizarre recent account of having his plane seized at a private strip on tribal lands near the Grand Canyon after getting advance permission to land there.  Granted it only tells one side, but the chilling story sounds like something that would happen in Central America, not inside US borders.  I made a mental note never to land at a private strip for any reason inside tribal lands.

 

[MikeOH]

Holy crap!

How long ago did this happen?  And, what was the outcome?

[Shadrach]

4 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Holy crap!

How long ago did this happen?  And, what was the outcome?

It’s recent. Video uploaded 2 weeks ago.

[MikeOH]

Just now, Shadrach said:

It’s recent. Video uploaded 2 weeks ago.

Thanks; I obviously missed that.

Guess it'll be another month before his 'kangaroo court' trial

[Shadrach]

16 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Thanks; I obviously missed that.

Guess it'll be another month before his 'kangaroo court' trial

Let’s hope it does not drag out through multiple appearances. Being a pawn in a political pissing contest between to reservation officials with your Mooney at stake is an unenviable situation.

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Let’s hope it does not drag out through multiple appearances. Being a pawn in a political pissing contest between to reservation officials with your Mooney at stake is an unenviable situation.

At least he's removed his plane from tribal lands.  I would hope tribal authority would end with a monetary judgement and actual seizure of his aircraft would require the involvement of U.S. authorities (e.g. FBI) requiring some kind of U.S. Federal court procedure based on 'tribal request' before seizure.  BWTHDIK (did not stay at Holiday Inn, nor a lawyer)

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, DXB said:

Granted it only tells one side, but the chilling story sounds like something that would happen in Central America, not inside US boarders. 

I'm not sure tribal lands are "inside US borders" except in the sense of situations like the country of Lesotho which is "inside the borders" of South Africa, but is a sovereign state, and not controlled by or beholden to South Africa except for terrestrial access to the outside world.

[KLRDMD]

18 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I'm not sure tribal lands are "inside US borders" except in the sense of situations like the country of Lesotho which is "inside the borders" of South Africa, but is a sovereign state, and not controlled by or beholden to South Africa except for terrestrial access to the outside world.

Tribal lands are sovereign nations. US laws do not apply. I worked at a tribe part-time for five years. It is a whole 'nuther world. My professional malpractice insurance would not cover me there. I had to become an employee of the hospital to be covered by their policy. I flew there for work most days and was given permission to land at the tribal airport. I chose to land instead at a public airport down the highway.

Edited September 2 by KLRDMD

[IvanP]

Glad to hear that he got the plane out of there in one piece. At least we know where not to fly. So much for trusting a spoken word of government officials these days, tribal or otherwise. Did anyone who inadvertently busted Bravo airspace or VIP TFR get his plane seized by the feds or zealous local cops? Even if he landed without the permission, seizure of the aircraft would seem rather disproportionate to the magnitude of the offense.    

[MikeOH]

36 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

Tribal lands are sovereign nations. US laws do not apply. I worked at a tribe part-time for five years. It is a whole 'nuther world. My professional malpractice insurance would not cover me there. I had to become an employee of the hospital to be covered by their policy. I flew there for work most days and was given permission to land at the tribal airport. I chose to land instead at a public airport down the highway.

Based on that, I would hope that this tribal sovereign nation has no jurisdiction over the U.S. and its citizens any more than any other nation would.  IOW, what if this guy, now that he has his plane back, tells this tribe to "pound sand"?  Would the U.S. extradite him to the tribe upon their request?

[EricJ]

24 minutes ago, IvanP said:

Glad to hear that he got the plane out of there in one piece. At least we know where not to fly. So much for trusting a spoken word of government officials these days, tribal or otherwise. Did anyone who inadvertently busted Bravo airspace or VIP TFR get his plane seized by the feds or zealous local cops? Even if he landed without the permission, seizure of the aircraft would seem rather disproportionate to the magnitude of the offense.    

Civil forfeiture could get your aircraft seized regardless of where you landed if you had more than $10k of cash on you.   Your chances of getting it back were very low.   That started during the Reagan administration and was in place for a long, long time.   I seem to recall there was a Mooney that was seized at one point not too many years ago.   

Edit:  Found part of it:   https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/59148fd7add7b0493456c563

In this case the main thing remaining is how much fine will ultimately be assessed, if any.   I think there's also a question of if they do impose a fine, whether he really needs to pay it if he never intends to return to that jurisdiction.   He's going to be out his time and expenses, regardless.

[MikeOH]

3 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I think there's also a question of if they do impose a fine, whether he really needs to pay it if he never intends to return to that jurisdiction.

EXACTLY!

What leverage does a tribal sovereign nation have over a citizen of another country?

Given how this guy has been treated I'll never visit and spend my money on that tribal land.  If it was me I'd just never visit again; I'd honor the agreement I reached with that official and send in the fees we both had agreed upon.

[DXB]

12 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I'm not sure tribal lands are "inside US borders" except in the sense of situations like the country of Lesotho which is "inside the borders" of South Africa, but is a sovereign state, and not controlled by or beholden to South Africa except for terrestrial access to the outside world.

 

11 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Based on that, I would hope that this tribal sovereign nation has no jurisdiction over the U.S. and its citizens any more than any other nation would.  IOW, what if this guy, now that he has his plane back, tells this tribe to "pound sand"?  Would the U.S. extradite him to the tribe upon their request?

 

12 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

Tribal lands are sovereign nations. US laws do not apply. I worked at a tribe part-time for five years. It is a whole 'nuther world. My professional malpractice insurance would not cover me there. I had to become an employee of the hospital to be covered by their policy. I flew there for work most days and was given permission to land at the tribal airport. I chose to land instead at a public airport down the highway.

Super interesting topic I know nothing about. My brief internet “research” suggests that, in broad general terms, federal criminal laws mostly apply but civil ones mostly do not. State laws generally do not apply. They pay most federal taxes but are largely exempt from state taxes.  However they have the right to vote in both state and federal elections. However, their voting power in state elections is limited by not having representatives in their legislatures (except in Maine).  And they of course don’t get their own congressional representation like real states.  So they are not really states and not really sovereign nations - hard to find a parallel for them.  They do have a striking degree of sovereignty and thus appropriately a limited voice in state and federal government.  It also becomes a big mess sorting out jurisdiction when tribal vs nontribal members commit crimes or have civil disputes on each others lands  - this seems particularly problematic in Oklahoma, which is majority tribal land.

More on topic, I wonder if he could find a federal criminal law that they violated in order to help make this all go away….

[EricJ]

38 minutes ago, DXB said:

More on topic, I wonder if he could find a federal criminal law that they violated in order to help make this all go away….

If they had actually seized or damaged his aircraft it could have gotten very sticky.   I suspect that may be why they didn't.

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, EricJ said:

If they had actually seized or damaged his aircraft it could have gotten very sticky.   I suspect that may be why they didn't.

Agree. Although, had they damaged/destroyed his plane I doubt he would have had much success in getting any compensation from the tribe.

[MikeOH]

@1980Mooney

So your position is that anyone that calls for permission, and gets it (verbal), deserves to have their plane confiscated?  He went to what I thought pretty reasonable lengths to obtain that permission; it seemed overly involved.  Or, are you just calling him a liar?  If so, you ought to present some evidence other than your clear animus towards this guy!

While you're at it, please explain why who he is, where he lives, how big his house is, how the plane is registered, or if it was properly tied down has ANY BEARING WHATSOEVER on why he 'deserves what he got'?

[DXB]

21 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Things are not always what they appear on the internet. This YouTuber, who is trying to attract subscribing viewers in order to make money with posts like this, is trying to stay anonymous as "Should We Go Outside".  He is named William Alan LeBaron flying N5795Q, a 1965 M20E.  He actually lives in Arizona and should know something about the native reservations.  The nicest thing you can say about him is that he is naive.  Perhaps he lacks an understanding of the desert and tribal west because he resides in the closeted notorious outcast polygamist FLDS community of Centennial Park, AZ.  

What part of "private" does he not understand in "Private Airport"?  And no written approval, no text, no email, no permit, nada - just his recollection of phone calls to a bunch of people?  His whining about seeing shell casings on the ground. OMG - it is the desert southwest.  Back in the mid 60's we would actually still shoot target practice with rifles outdoors within the city limits of Albuquerque.  In desolate New Mexico and Arizona any road sign is a favorite long distant target.  I count at least 20 holes in the stop sign to the landing strip in Google map.  Then again those casings might have been from a pilot trying to get coyotes off the runway.

Then again he says he enjoyed 3 days camping in the canyon after hiking 8 miles each way.  So his plane was parked on this barren strip for 3-4 days unattended.  In the pictures his plane is not tied down and there do not appear to be any.  Would you just leave your plane sitting out in the middle of nowhere for 4 days - unproteced, unattended, un-secured? He is lucky it was not shot up or vandalized.  Or blew away in a windstorm or dust devil.

The whole thing is piss poor planning.  Haulapai landing strip (I wont even call it an airport - no fuel, no lights, nothing but weeds growing in the concrete cracks) is not close to the Falls trailhead.  Google shows it to be a nearly 2 hour drive from the airport to the top of the trail.  He still needed someone else to drive him to the trail.  Only another 30 minute drive was a real public airport with lights, PAPI, fuel, security fencing - Seligman P23.

This topic and discussion should have been posted under "This guy is an embarrassment to Mooney pilots."

 

 

 

Interesting - those are pretty juicy background details about the individual that I wasn't able to figure out, but they might be irrelevant to the circumstances here. I've certainly landed at desolate private strip previously based on a phone call alone, but I'd never leave my plane there unsecured for any amount of time - obviously poor judgement.  Regardless, the video is a good reminder to tread very carefully when landing on private strips. The complex jurisdiction issues related to landing on tribal land certainly don't help.

[FlyingDude]

I was supposed to land at the next door Grand Canyon Caverns airport 2 years ago, but since rental car return took forever at Flagstaff, I wasn't going to make it in time for my cave tour. They were booked the rest of the day... So I did the southern rim and went home.

That's a privately owned strip, too. Did I just dodge a bullet??? 

[N201MKTurbo]

The last time I hiked the Havasu Falls trail I landed at the Grand Canyon Caverns airport. I had a group of friends doing the hike and drove to the Grand Canyon motel, so I had a ride to the trail head. 

[1980Mooney]

34 minutes ago, FlyingDude said:

I was supposed to land at the next door Grand Canyon Caverns airport 2 years ago, but since rental car return took forever at Flagstaff, I wasn't going to make it in time for my cave tour. They were booked the rest of the day... So I did the southern rim and went home.

That's a privately owned strip, too. Did I just dodge a bullet??? 

No. Grand Canyon Caverns Airport, L37, is open to the public. No approval is needed. Many airports open to the public are privately owned. For example, here in Houston all the GA airports on the west side except Sugar Land are privately owned but open to the public. (West Houston, Executive, Southwest, David Wayne Hooks). Sugar Land was also privately owned by Dr Hull (hence Hull Field) until his family sold it to the City of Sugar Land. 
 

Grand Canyon Caverns Airport, L37, is owned by GRAND CANYON CAVERNS & INN, LLC. However, Hualapai Airport, 3AZ5, (where this bozo landed) is owned by the HUALAPAI INDIAN TRIBE and is a Private airport. It is not open to the public. 

Edited September 3 by 1980Mooney

[N201MKTurbo]

If you land at Grand Canyon Caverns and spend the night, you can park your plane in front of your room. You do take up 3 parking spaces and civilians will be parking cars next to your plane. I left mine there for 4 days with no damage. The plane freaks out the people at the gas station. There are tie down loops in the parking lot and they have ropes available. I think the motel likes planes there and they keep an eye on them.. you do have to taxi through a parking lot with cars driving around.

[Shadrach]

I’ve landed at several non public strips and permission has always come by way of a phone call or an invitation from an existing tenant. I would not land on a reservation without written permission. I’ve heard some rather unsavory stories about how the property of outsiders is treated on some reservations.

I don’t really see what this guy’s religion, house, or community have to do with this situation.

[cliffy]

21 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

No. Grand Canyon Caverns Airport, L37, is open to the public. No approval is needed. Many airports open to the public are privately owned. For example, here in Houston all the GA airports on the west side except Sugar Land are privately owned but open to the public. (West Houston, Executive, Southwest, David Wayne Hooks). Sugar Land was also privately owned by Dr Hull (hence Hull Field) until his family sold it to the City of Sugar Land. 
 

Grand Canyon Caverns Airport, L37, is owned by GRAND CANYON CAVERNS & INN, LLC. However, Hualapai Airport, 3AZ5, (where this bozo landed) is owned by the HUALAPAI INDIAN TRIBE and is a Private airport. It is not open to the public. 

And the family of Weiser sold the airport for the money and now it is no longer there

DWH is an OK place to go but it has no tie downs outside on the line parking. You can however get in a hangar most times.

[IvanP]

I would be curious about the purpose of this airport. It does not seem to be used much. Flightaware free stats show 5 landings in last 3 years, most recent one on May 30th, 2024 - possibly by the individual who started this thread. I am not curious enough to purchase the full report, though. AirNav shows that it was activated in 1991, not too long ago. Why would the tribe build and airport that nobody is using? We can all get our imagination going about what could be happening at this place, but that would be pure speculation.  

[N201MKTurbo]

16 minutes ago, IvanP said:

I would be curious about the purpose of this airport. It does not seem to be used much. Flightaware free stats show 5 landings in last 3 years, most recent one on May 30th, 2024 - possibly by the individual who started this thread. I am not curious enough to purchase the full report, though. AirNav shows that it was activated in 1991, not too long ago. Why would the tribe build and airport that nobody is using? We can all get our imagination going about what could be happening at this place, but that would be pure speculation.  

I think the BIA built that airport for them. There are quite a few like it scattered around. They were built as a place for emergency medical aircraft to land. It was just a government boondoggle. Some are used and some like this one are not. It was probably given to the tribe which carries the liability for the airport. I bet they would just like it to go away.