Help pick my avionics

[Max Clark]

Current: M20R Ovation 2 DX mostly original. JPI EDM 730 was added replacing the 700, Avidyne 540/440 stack replaced the Garmin

Want: Large PFD & GFC 500 autopilot

Questions:

1. G500 TXi w/ 275 Standby or G3X w/ G5 Standby - I haven't figured out what the tradeoffs between these displays & standbys are
2. Integrated EIS or EDM 900/930 - hearing that Garmin's EIS isn't what you might hope for vs the EDM
3. GTN 750Xi seems like a no brainer - is it worth spending the $ on a GTN650Xi or step down to a GNC 215 or GTR 205
4. Should I even think about adding a 9" portrait mode MFD for the right seat

Really curious what you think is worth it, and what isn't. Don't want to waste money, but don't want to wish I did something different after the fact.

Thanks!

[natdm]

5 minutes ago, Max Clark said:

Really curious what you think is worth it, and what isn't. Don't want to waste money, but don't want to wish I did something different after the fact.

I installed a 650xi and a 355, as a backup GPS. While it's nice that the 355 cross-fills to the 650xi and had connext built-in, I think it was a bit of a waste. In hind-sight, I'd rather a large screen 750xi, add connext to it, and get something like the 215. So, it doesn't help you much, but there's that. 

[Barneyw]

1 hour ago, Max Clark said:

Current: M20R Ovation 2 DX mostly original. JPI EDM 730 was added replacing the 700, Avidyne 540/440 stack replaced the Garmin

Want: Large PFD & GFC 500 autopilot

Questions:

1. G500 TXi w/ 275 Standby or G3X w/ G5 Standby - I haven't figured out what the tradeoffs between these displays & standbys are
2. Integrated EIS or EDM 900/930 - hearing that Garmin's EIS isn't what you might hope for vs the EDM
3. GTN 750Xi seems like a no brainer - is it worth spending the $ on a GTN650Xi or step down to a GNC 215 or GTR 205
4. Should I even think about adding a 9" portrait mode MFD for the right seat

Really curious what you think is worth it, and what isn't. Don't want to waste money, but don't want to wish I did something different after the fact.

Thanks!

Hi Max

My aircraft is due out of the shop in a week or so.

Not sure if you are intending to fly IFR, however, probably like you you want the best and then reality sets in. The 275s are wonderful instruments but expensive and also require an extra component for it to drive the GFC. Furthermore, assuming FAA rules are similar to the rules I adhere to the G5 can act as a STBY instrument and has a 4 hour battery backup. I had a EI CGR 30P and 30C combo which I liked a lot and kept plus economically speaking it would have been criminal to have removed it just so it could be replaced by the Garmin stuff. I will be running 2 x 7" GDU 470s in portrait, GTN 650Xi, GNX 375 and the G5 as STBY AI. 

The attached pic is the initial design review. The panel has since been cut and being painted as I write. Couple of points, I have put in a proper slip indicator as I find the electronically derived skid balls to be overly sensitive, and I am also fitting an AV-20S for its AoA indicator but it does have a lot of other useful functions

Cheers

Barney

[Rick Junkin]

1 hour ago, Max Clark said:

Current: M20R Ovation 2 DX mostly original. JPI EDM 730 was added replacing the 700, Avidyne 540/440 stack replaced the Garmin

Want: Large PFD & GFC 500 autopilot

Questions:

1. G500 TXi w/ 275 Standby or G3X w/ G5 Standby - I haven't figured out what the tradeoffs between these displays & standbys are
2. Integrated EIS or EDM 900/930 - hearing that Garmin's EIS isn't what you might hope for vs the EDM
3. GTN 750Xi seems like a no brainer - is it worth spending the $ on a GTN650Xi or step down to a GNC 215 or GTR 205
4. Should I even think about adding a 9" portrait mode MFD for the right seat

Really curious what you think is worth it, and what isn't. Don't want to waste money, but don't want to wish I did something different after the fact.

Thanks!

1. First, the G3X can pair with the GI 275 too, if that makes a difference to you. Otherwise, the G3X is great if you're going all Garmin. That's what I have. It is designed to interface easily with all of the digital Garmin gear, and loses some capability if you want to use Brand X equipment with it. The G500 TXi plays well with others, or at least can play with others. It looks like you're going all Garmin so this may be a moot point. The display on the G500 is more refined in my opinion, but I haven't flown behind one. What I like most about the G3X over the G500 is that I can easily access the configuration pages on the G3X so I was able to customize, with appropriate supervision, to my liking. Maybe this can be done on the G500 but I haven't heard anyone talking about it.

2. I have the integrated Garmin EIS and the thing I miss the most from my EDM 830 is the normalize function for CHT & EGT. The experimental G3X Touch has this capability but they haven't added it to the certified OFP yet. It's also missing some of the fuel data blocks from the EDM, specifically the fuel required to destination block. I use my GTN 650Xi trip planning page to get that data when I want it. That one's not a big deal, since I have Fuel Over Destination displayed on one of the G3X data blocks. I'm going to look at the GI 275 EIS in more detail to see what's on it and may add that to the panel at some later date, but probably not.

3. This one is a little more esoteric and driven by lots of considerations unique to each person. Do you need/want two IFR GPS sources? How about a backup VOR? What's your capability if your only GPS/VOR box fails? What's the likelihood of that happening, outside of a check ride? If you're set on the 750Xi and are comfortable with its reliability then the GTR is a good option. I went a different route and opted for a 650Xi and a GNC 255A, with the intent of my PFD being my primary user interface and the individual boxes in the radio stack serving in an interface redundancy role. I use the 650Xi mainly for flight plan and procedure entry and modification and VNAV because the G3X can't do that for IFR. Everything else I need that the 650Xi can do I can do on the G3X.  There are things the 750 can do that the 650 can't, and of course there is the screen size and content, but the 650 filled my requirements.

4. I did this and I like it. I realized how much I use it while on the way to and from Oshkosh this year with a pilot friend in the right seat. I gave him that display to use, and found myself starting to reach over to change screens a bunch of times. Sure, I can use the PFD split screen to access all of the pages, but I've grown accustomed to using the right display to get three pages displayed at once and that's useful to me. Plus it's a backup for the EIS if my PFD dies, which is one of the primary reasons I put it in. So maybe not so important if you decide to go with an EDM or EI engine monitor.

Hope that helps!

Cheers,
Rick

[Pinecone]

I went through the same iteration.  See the thread "Let the Games Begin" in the avionics section.

I did G3X.  The G500TXi has a better screen and has some things that are more configurable than the G3X, but at a higher price.  If you are going all Garmin, the G3X is fine.  The only thing I really don't like is that it does not connect to the high speed data bus, so you need to update using an SD card.

I have both a 750Xi and 650Xi.  But I already had the 650Xi and the price savings to downgrade with not that large, so I kept it.  It is not needed, but it is very nice.  Most time, I put the traffic page up on it.

I originally planned on an AERA 760 in a dock for the right side, but switched a 7" portrait G3X.  Gives me another screen, or, if there is a pilot in the right sear, they can have a PFD or MFD display.

I went with the Garmin EIS.  I had a JPI 830.  I liked the JPI display, but the Garmin does a good job.  And there is an issue in a Mooney about panel space.  My panel is FULL.

Pictures of my panel

 

[201Mooniac]

2 hours ago, Barneyw said:

The 275s are wonderful instruments but expensive and also require an extra component for it to drive the GFC.

The GI 275 does not require an extra component to drive the GFC 500, the CANBUS interface and software for the GFC 500 are all included in the GI 275.

[201Mooniac]

3 hours ago, Max Clark said:

Current: M20R Ovation 2 DX mostly original. JPI EDM 730 was added replacing the 700, Avidyne 540/440 stack replaced the Garmin

Want: Large PFD & GFC 500 autopilot

Questions:

1. G500 TXi w/ 275 Standby or G3X w/ G5 Standby - I haven't figured out what the tradeoffs between these displays & standbys are
2. Integrated EIS or EDM 900/930 - hearing that Garmin's EIS isn't what you might hope for vs the EDM
3. GTN 750Xi seems like a no brainer - is it worth spending the $ on a GTN650Xi or step down to a GNC 215 or GTR 205
4. Should I even think about adding a 9" portrait mode MFD for the right seat

Really curious what you think is worth it, and what isn't. Don't want to waste money, but don't want to wish I did something different after the fact.

Thanks!

A couple of comments that are mostly just my opinion so not worth anything except to me...

1. I think the main differences between the G500 TXi and the G3X is the display is a newer technology and looks better on the G500 TXi and there is much better interconnect available of the G500 TXi, mostly to benefit legacy equipment.  If you aren't trying to connect to legacy equipment, the cost savings of the G3x is likely the determining factor.  Just for reference, I have the G500 TXi and GI 275 standby and EIS.

2. I went from an EDM to the GI 275 EIS and am very happy with the display and functionality.  I especially like that the engine data automatically uploads to GP and the Garmin website so I can easily review the data.

I'm sure you will be happy with any of your choices, these are all good options.

[Danb]

Just for curiosity what range of cost does a complete first class panel run, Don K’s, Terry,s and a few other including Chris’s F model come to mind as being first class 

D 

[MikeOH]

42 minutes ago, Danb said:

Just for curiosity what range of cost does a complete first class panel run, Don K’s, Terry,s and a few other including Chris’s F model come to mind as being first class 

D 

I'd suggest you make sure you are sitting down preferably after consuming a few adult beverages

[Barneyw]

9 hours ago, 201Mooniac said:

The GI 275 does not require an extra component to drive the GFC 500, the CANBUS interface and software for the GFC 500 are all included in the GI 275.

Apologies but I may have misspoke but it does require an additional interface this according to Garmin.

ADI AUTOPILOT INTEGRATION

With optionally available built-in autopilot interface, GI 275 can provide precise attitude information to drive select autopilots (including the GFC^™ 500 autopilot) and display flight director command bar cues¹.

The other thing is that it can't be used as a standby instrument in some configurations and some regulatory jurisdiction. I'm not sure about FAA

I wanted a GI 275 but for my setup but it required the extra interface and did not meet the requirements of a standby AI without extra expense so opted for the G5 which just needed to be installed without any extra interfaces and met the requirements out of the box for STBY AI.

I think the GI 275 are excellent instruments and make great replacements for 3" rounds if you were not planning to put in a flat screen. However, if you are going to put in a flatscreen the G5 makes an excellent cost effective standby AI that will still allow you to drive the autopilot, fly approaches and it has a 4 hour battery backup.

Sorry if I caused confusion.

Cheers

Barney

 

 

[shawnd]

My plane is in the shop for panel overhaul. Going with G500TXi with GI-275 standby and discrete GI-275 EIS. Didn't want to tie in EIS in the same unit as the PFD just inc case it fails. Also, the panel looks more symmetrical & appealing to me with the two circles breaking up the boxes. To each their own  

You don't need the GI-275 ADAHRS+AP if you are going with GFC-500. That unit can drive non-Garmin APs as well as GFC-500. But you can use a GI-275 ADAHRS unit for standby and drive the GFC-500. I am going with the same setup for AP and standby and this configuration has been vetted by the local dealer. I will be offering my ADAHRS+AP unit for sale in the near future.  If you are still not convinced, just chat with a local Garmin dealer. 

The benefits of the TXi system is the higher resolution and the extra processing power. Yes - you do not get to control the extra LRUs straight from the screen in front of you but the speed at which things boot up is sure nice. I have the GTN 750 which is getting upgraded to GTN 750xi. I bought a used 650xi and that thing booted up in seconds that I could count on my fingers vs 30 or seconds on the 750. Also, the higher resolution is great for charts.

Re: MFD - you really don't need it but can use that money to upgrade the nav/comm stack. These devices are reliable based on feedback from members on this forum. Especially if you have a 275 as standby. The one thing you would want to consider the XI MFD is for the GBB-54 battery which is only allowed to connect to the 7" MFD to power the backup system according to the STC. Annoying as hell, but this might tilt you towards installing the MFD.

If you are interested, take a look at this thread where I will be posting updates: 

 

[ArtVandelay]

Just for curiosity what range of cost does a complete first class panel run, Don K’s, Terry,s and a few other including Chris’s F model come to mind as being first class 
D 

My guess is:
G500TXi with dual panels and GTN 750Xi with 650 as a backup…$100k.
G3X single panel with GTN 650Xi and 255 as a 2nd radio…$75k.
Both include JPI 900 and GFC500.

[Z W]

We have a G500TXi/GTN650xi/GNC355/G5/GFC500/FS510.  It works great and there's not anything I'd change.  A GTN750 didn't seem worth the extra cost and panel space, and neither did a stand-alone dedicated engine monitor or a MFD.  

I'd rather have 2 GPS and 1 nav than 2 nav and 1 GPS, but that's a preference.  Just about everything has a backup. 

Flight plans push from a phone to the panel and back, and everything updates either through Garmin Pilot wirelessly or by a single SD card in the GTN650.  Very easy to use and maintain.

 

[Danb]

Sweet. 

[201Mooniac]

13 hours ago, Barneyw said:

Apologies but I may have misspoke but it does require an additional interface this according to Garmin.

ADI AUTOPILOT INTEGRATION

With optionally available built-in autopilot interface, GI 275 can provide precise attitude information to drive select autopilots (including the GFC^™ 500 autopilot) and display flight director command bar cues¹.

The other thing is that it can't be used as a standby instrument in some configurations and some regulatory jurisdiction. I'm not sure about FAA

I wanted a GI 275 but for my setup but it required the extra interface and did not meet the requirements of a standby AI without extra expense so opted for the G5 which just needed to be installed without any extra interfaces and met the requirements out of the box for STBY AI.

I think the GI 275 are excellent instruments and make great replacements for 3" rounds if you were not planning to put in a flat screen. However, if you are going to put in a flatscreen the G5 makes an excellent cost effective standby AI that will still allow you to drive the autopilot, fly approaches and it has a 4 hour battery backup.

Sorry if I caused confusion.

Cheers

Barney

 

 

This confusion isn't your fault, this is often a point of confusion as Garmin does not describe it clearly in all places.  However from the Pilots Guide section on unit types:

So the GFC 500 is supported in the ADAHRS unit and does not require the ADAHRS plus Autopilot Interface unit.  I can't speak to certification requirements outside of the US but here you can certainly use the GI 275 ADAHRS unit as a standby to the G500 TXi as this is part of the STC.

[hubcap]

My approach was very similar the one taken by @Rick Junkin and @Pinecone 

I had a G500 but went with the G3X when I upgraded. I really believe that was a good choice. I went with a 650xi and GNX 375. Two GPS navigators and 1 nav. I chose the Garmin EIS to replace my JPI 900 which was necessary for panel space as I went with 2 of the 10” displays and a G5. The G3X has a great deal of functionality and I find the interface very intuitive and easy to learn.

I have posted pictures of my panel on Mooneyspace if you are interested. I did not feel the cost upgrade to go with the G275 over the G5 was worth it. 

[Marc_B]

On 8/22/2024 at 8:51 AM, Max Clark said:

• G500 TXi w/ 275 Standby or G3X w/ G5 Standby - I haven't figured out what the tradeoffs between these displays & standbys are
• Integrated EIS or EDM 900/930 - hearing that Garmin's EIS isn't what you might hope for vs the EDM
• GTN 750Xi seems like a no brainer - is it worth spending the $ on a GTN650Xi or step down to a GNC 215 or GTR 205
• Should I even think about adding a 9" portrait mode MFD for the right seat

my $0.02 after going though this.  I had the legacy G500 and when I was having issues with my King AP, I upgraded to the GFC500.  Took that time to finish the panel the way I wanted it for the foreseeable future.  So my thoughts:

1) G500TXi is much better than the legacy and I feel there are a few format items, placement, and more similarity to the GTNs with the TXi vs the G3X.  I like the format of the AP scoreboard on the TXi better.  A little brighter screen.  But you'd be happy with either.  If you are going with a Big screen PFD and the GTNs, no need to cram more data into the standby.  So I chose the G5 standby.  For all the square screens, it seems to match better.  And personally I feel the GI275 was trying to put too much into a too small of hole.  Also the battery life of the G5 is much better which is what I'd be using the standby instrument for anyways.  When I did my upgrade, the G5 was available immediately (275 backlog) and it was cheaper. 

2)  I started with an EI MVP-50 engine monitor, and I really like it and kept it with the upgrade.  EI is very easy to deal with when I upgraded the screen and when they had new probes that had better life and they switched them out with my current probes.  Personally I have gotten used to, and enjoy having, engine data separate from the PFD.  It is also super easy to button through the screens for all my data at the end of a flight and a USB jump drive to download all engine data.

3)  Agreed, the GTN750Xi is a great unit.  I have the GTN650Xi below it and think they work well together...but I do most of the work from the GTN750.  For me this is one more place to put traffic, default nav page for all my data, and if I had any issues with GTN750, they are clones of each other so same buttonology.  I like having two Nav/coms for IFR, and everything crossfills and talks between the GTNs.  So I can use the TXi or either GTN to send freqs to both.  So I routinely use wx/ground/clearance freqs on 2 and com1 use active airborne freqs.

3a) Not sure what you're doing with audio panel, but I have the GMA35 remote audio panel and it's all controlled from the GTN750.  I prefer it that way and really enjoy the Garmin Telligence, 3D audio (when on comm1 and monitoring comm2 then 1 comes out of left ear and 2 comes out of right ear in headphone), and it all seems pretty easy to use from the GTN.  If you're not sure, I'd see if you can demo/check out someone with a PS engineering audio panel and someone with the GMA35/35c.

4)  For me another screen on the right side just didn't make sense.  My "copilot" most of the time is watching a movie or reading.  Instead I have an Aera 760 yoke mount on the left yoke.  This is a super fast and easy way to control music, keep on traffic page around the airport, see weather en route, put on terrain in mountains (I like the terrain page of the 760 better than the terrain page on the panel...760 has a profile view with flight path projection like Foreflight as well as the overhead view with colors), and view charts/airport data/etc independently of the GTN screen and closer to me.  In my mind, a second PFD/MFD on the copilot side makes sense with a throw over yoke (i.e. some bonanzas) or with larger aircraft where you have your copilot flying the entire flight sometimes.  Personally I didn't feel it was a benefit for me.

Hindsight) about the only thing that I might have considered was having the transponder changed to a remote...but it's out of the way and I do actually use the buttons to turn off, on, alt, etc.  Its quicker for me to do this from the transponder when flying formation.  But putting squawk codes I do from the GTN. 

I really enjoy my panel, and the biggest part is whatever you do get plenty of training and make sure you understand the quirks, buttonology, and how to set it all up.  A solid instructor and an onsite Garmin course go a LONG way, but reading the pilot guides completely through several times is a must.

[toto]

22 hours ago, shawnd said:

The benefits of the TXi system is the higher resolution

The G500TXi and the G3X Touch have identical resolution per Garmin.

Some say the TXi looks better, idk

I have the G3X and carefully researched the differences before purchasing. I probably would have flipped for the TXi if it had higher resolution. I was going all-Garmin, so the interconnection advantages of the TXi didn’t have much value for me, and I like the tight integration with the GFC. 

[toto]

It might already have been mentioned above, but I didn’t see it - apologies if I’m repeating. 

One advantage to the integrated EIS is that you get engine telemetry along with air data. Every flight I take has streaming data to my iPad, and I have a full record of every flight with air data and engine data automatically. No SD cards, no merging flight data with EIS. 

Also worth noting that the EIS streams to the iPad in real time, so if your display craps out you still have all of your engine data on a tablet. This was a key reason I decided not to install a standalone EIS display - it’s already redundant. 

[shawnd]

48 minutes ago, toto said:

The G500TXi and the G3X Touch have identical resolution per Garmin.

Some say the TXi looks better, idk

I have the G3X and carefully researched the differences before purchasing. I probably would have flipped for the TXi if it had higher resolution. I was going all-Garmin, so the interconnection advantages of the TXi didn’t have much value for me, and I like the tight integration with the GFC. 

You are right - I always thought the G3X touch was slightly lower in resolution, but I stand corrected. If you already have spare GI-275s or access to cheaper GI-275s, then it's worth going with G500TXi to allow the 275 to act as a full standby and one that can drive the GFC. The STC for G3X primary with GI-275 standby doesn't allow the GFC 500 to be driven by the GI-275 if PFD fails.

[toto]

2 minutes ago, shawnd said:

You are right - I always thought the G3X touch was slightly lower in resolution, but I stand corrected. If you already have spare GI-275s or access to cheaper GI-275s, then it's worth going with G500TXi to allow the 275 to act as a full standby and one that can drive the GFC. The STC for G3X primary with GI-275 standby doesn't allow the GFC 500 to be driven by the GI-275 if PFD fails.

There's no doubt that the 275 has more functionality, but I care about the G5 primarily as a battery-powered AI, and the G5 has much longer battery life than the 275.  The fact that it's a redundant AP annunciator (and a redundant AP control head) is just gravy

I also went with the G5 backup in part because I prefer the look of the square instrument next to the big display.  The 275 is a ton of horsepower if you're dropping it in a legacy panel with round holes, but I have the G3X for most of what I'd use a 275 for.

[shawnd]

On the topic of EIS - although the EIS on the GI-275 display may be smaller to some, I chose that because, along with separation from PFD, you have a lot more information presented to you on the main screen without having to pull up additional panel. It matches the information provided in JPI 900 / 830 display on page 1. I especially like the CHT & EGT per cylinder bar graph with TIT information.

[Pinecone]

I went with the G-5 backup for two reasons.  1)  I like the square format better and 2) I already had it in the panel as a backup to an Aspen 1000 Pro.

A friend just did a dual G-5 to G3X Touch and put the second G-5 on the right panel.

Not including the WX500 (i purchased that directly), my panel was about $100K.   It was probably more, but the shop I used believes that a quote is binding, except for changes made (adding the second G3X, etc).

Many of us believe that a new product will come out (either G4X or G3Xi), and that it will not be a huge price to upgrade as there will be a market for used G3X Touch.  My avionics shop owner is on an advisory board to Garmin and everyone is adamant that any follow on needs to fit the same panel cutout.

For audio panel I picked PS Engineering.  It was a close call, but they specialize in audio panels.  And were very helpful and took time to go over things when I called when making the decision.

[Max Clark]

On 8/22/2024 at 12:03 PM, Rick Junkin said:

Hope that helps!

Cheers,
Rick

Helps a lot thanks Rick!

[Max Clark]

On 8/22/2024 at 12:18 PM, Pinecone said:

I went through the same iteration.  See the thread "Let the Games Begin" in the avionics section.

I did G3X.  The G500TXi has a better screen and has some things that are more configurable than the G3X, but at a higher price.  If you are going all Garmin, the G3X is fine.  The only thing I really don't like is that it does not connect to the high speed data bus, so you need to update using an SD card.

I have both a 750Xi and 650Xi.  But I already had the 650Xi and the price savings to downgrade with not that large, so I kept it.  It is not needed, but it is very nice.  Most time, I put the traffic page up on it.

I originally planned on an AERA 760 in a dock for the right side, but switched a 7" portrait G3X.  Gives me another screen, or, if there is a pilot in the right sear, they can have a PFD or MFD display.

I went with the Garmin EIS.  I had a JPI 830.  I liked the JPI display, but the Garmin does a good job.  And there is an issue in a Mooney about panel space.  My panel is FULL.

Pictures of my panel

 

It would be nice if our panel was just a little bigger!

Remote audio interface and transponder feel like a must just to get more room

The right seat pilot comment makes sense, do you find you use that MFD when it's just you in the plane?