New guy, no Mooney, but I have the bug!

[Flyler]

Hi guys,

I just wanted to stop in and say hello.  I'm still working on my PPl, very close at 42hr and with the weather improving her in CT, hopefully it comes fast!  I did some research to see what a good adventure plane would be for myself, wife, and dog... Of course the answer is Mooney, Mooney, Mooney!  I'm hoping to pick up an OK condition m20C or m20E model and fix it up and modernize over time.  Currently still a bit of a dream but really looking towards the future!

 

Cheers!

Tyler

[Skates97]

Welcome aboard. I bought ours right after getting my PPL. It was the nicest regularly flying one I could find. The panel needed some love but over the past 7 years and almost 1000 hours we've updated almost everything and had amazing adventures along the way.

[Lax291]

Hey Tyler, best of luck on the final lap with the certificate.  I'm in CT too and a DINK like you with a dog. Always had my eye on a Mooney for the speed and economy and was fortunate enough to acquire a J model last year. We are loving it, but certainly some additional expenses I incurred by being a freshly minutes pilot with 0 retreat when I bought the plane. Would I change things knowing what I know now.... probably not (I'm stubborn!) but if you ever want to check out a Mooney or chat about my experience just message me, I'm based out of HFD. 

I think @Skates97alluded to it, when you're ready to purchase, buy the "nicest" plane you can afford. Upgrading a steal of a plane will be more expensive than paying for a solid, well cared for platform. Happy flying and looking forward to the improving weather too!

[Flyler]

12 hours ago, Lax291 said:

Hey Tyler, best of luck on the final lap with the certificate.  I'm in CT too and a DINK like you with a dog. Always had my eye on a Mooney for the speed and economy and was fortunate enough to acquire a J model last year. We are loving it, but certainly some additional expenses I incurred by being a freshly minutes pilot with 0 retreat when I bought the plane. Would I change things knowing what I know now.... probably not (I'm stubborn!) but if you ever want to check out a Mooney or chat about my experience just message me, I'm based out of HFD. 

I think @Skates97alluded to it, when you're ready to purchase, buy the "nicest" plane you can afford. Upgrading a steal of a plane will be more expensive than paying for a solid, well cared for platform. Happy flying and looking forward to the improving weather too!

Thank you, this sounds like sage advice.  I'm sure every single student pilot gets the wild dreams of buying their own airplane when they can feel the license is coming soon   In reality, I would like to just continue straight onto IR, high performance, complex, and ideally commercial one day.  The rates at the school are good and there is a very attractive looking club at my local airport.  Of course, they don't have any Mooneys!  I'll probably keep stashing my cash for the initial purchase for another year or so before I pull the trigger.  Until then I will have to be content with the 100kt Piper rentals.

[Skates97]

12 minutes ago, Flyler said:

Until then I will have to be content with the 100kt Piper rentals.

If you're looking to build time, the 100kt Piper will build it at the exact same rate as the Mooney. It just won't be as fun... 

[MikeOH]

To give credit to @Skates97 I think buying the nicest regularly flying one you can find is the best airplane buying advice you are ever going to get!

1) Nicest: Buy with what you want already in the plane. Yes, there'll be some compromise but outfitting with new avionics, or new paint, or even new interior is going to be very costly.  Money spent will only return 50 cents on the dollar when you sell, and the downtime is often longer than expected/quoted.

2) Regularly flying: IMHO, this is the most important and key to having a minimal number of post purchase issues.  A plane that is regularly flying and seeing 100 hours a year is very likely going to have a high dispatch rate with systems that are working properly. As a first time buyer don't buy a hangar queen for a 'good price' and think you can 'get it running like a top' with just a little TLC!

Enjoy the journey!

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Skates97 said:

If you're looking to build time, the 100kt Piper will build it at the exact same rate as the Mooney. It just won't be as fun... 

Cessna 150s are still popular around here for that.   Takes forever to get anywhere.   There was a guy would show up on flightaware a few years ago just constantly flying all over the state.   Nearly all day every day on a long cross-country somewhere, and sometimes wandering around, probably looking at scenery.   That went on for a few months, probably until he got the time he needed or something.   It was kind of fun to watch.    There are several at our airport that stay pretty active, and a friend who is time building has one that they flog a lot.

Slow airplanes definitely have their place.   There's nothing wrong with building time and burning five or six gallons an hour.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Flyler said:

I'm sure every single student pilot gets the wild dreams of buying their own airplane when they can feel the license is coming soon   In reality, I would like to just continue straight onto IR, high performance, complex, and ideally commercial one day.  The rates at the school are good and there is a very attractive looking club at my local airport.  Of course, they don't have any Mooneys!  I'll probably keep stashing my cash for the initial purchase for another year or so before I pull the trigger.  Until then I will have to be content with the 100kt Piper rentals.

That was me in the XC stage of training, drooling over all the ads, talking to people about the characteristics of everything interesting and affordable . . . I "found" my Mooney then, and it was difficult to mentally set it aside and concentrate on finishing up. But two months later, I had my pink slip / Temporary Certificate, and five weeks after that I had a second pink slip / Temporary Registration! Yee-haaaw!!

First year insurance wasn't any fun, but there's a nice break at 100 hours in type, so I made sure that I was there. Part of that was a MAPA PPP [Mooney Aircraft Pilot Association Pilot Proficiency Program], and I hit 100 hours Total Time on my way to it, a scant five weeks after completing my 15 hours including 5 hours actual / simulated IMC Mooney Transition Training. So I was still in Student Pilot super-learning mode, and it was good. 

But the Instrument Rating will really help you fly closer to a schedule, and will require fewer cancellations. But there is some weather that a Mooney just won't fly through, and I've always watched it from the ground, because I'm a coward and prefer to be alive rather than brave and wondering if the "alive" part will last.

Study hard, finish your training, and "always fly as if your life depended on it, because it does."

[jaylw314]

4 hours ago, Flyler said:

Thank you, this sounds like sage advice.  I'm sure every single student pilot gets the wild dreams of buying their own airplane when they can feel the license is coming soon   In reality, I would like to just continue straight onto IR, high performance, complex, and ideally commercial one day.  The rates at the school are good and there is a very attractive looking club at my local airport.  Of course, they don't have any Mooneys!  I'll probably keep stashing my cash for the initial purchase for another year or so before I pull the trigger.  Until then I will have to be content with the 100kt Piper rentals.

If it's not a career path, just do things at your own pace and enjoy the ride.  A day in a 1970 Cherokee puttering along at 100 kts is still far better than being stuck on the ground in the office

[PilotX]

Buy a Bravo.

[Pinecone]

On 3/1/2024 at 12:59 PM, EricJ said:

Cessna 150s are still popular around here for that.   Takes forever to get anywhere.   There was a guy would show up on flightaware a few years ago just constantly flying all over the state.   Nearly all day every day on a long cross-country somewhere, and sometimes wandering around, probably looking at scenery.   That went on for a few months, probably until he got the time he needed or something.   It was kind of fun to watch.    There are several at our airport that stay pretty active, and a friend who is time building has one that they flog a lot.

Slow airplanes definitely have their place.   There's nothing wrong with building time and burning five or six gallons an hour.

OTOH, there is nothing wrong with building time going fast on a bit more gas.

I did my PP in a Grumman Tiger.  Life it too short for slow airplanes or cars.

 

[Schllc]

On 2/29/2024 at 6:25 PM, Flyler said:

Hi guys,

I just wanted to stop in and say hello.  I'm still working on my PPl, very close at 42hr and with the weather improving her in CT, hopefully it comes fast!  I did some research to see what a good adventure plane would be for myself, wife, and dog... Of course the answer is Mooney, Mooney, Mooney!  I'm hoping to pick up an OK condition m20C or m20E model and fix it up and modernize over time.  Currently still a bit of a dream but really looking towards the future!

 

Cheers!

Tyler

I bought an Ovation 3 to finish my ppl and get my instrument rating, I had about 10 or so hours when I purchased.
It is not the most common path but it’s absolutely possible and I do not regret the decision. Year one insurance was about 40% more than I pay now, but not as much as renting a plane, and my reasoning was that I would be establishing habits and routines in the plane I planned to fly. 
It definitely took a lot more time with an instructor than a Cessna would take to be comfortable flying alone, but being that my plan was to go directly into instrument training, I was going to be spending time with an instructor anyway.  I ended up flying with one for close to 100 hours as I was also transitioning to the Mooney.
My instructor had no Mooney experience prior to me.  In retrospect, I would find a mooney specific instructor if I had to do it again. (I was not aware of Mooney space yet)
As long as you are committed to flying frequently , and understand that an advanced airplane as a trainer will take more time, go for it. 
I’m not the only one here that did it this way, and the others who have opined, are pleased with their decision as well. 
Also, contrary to a lot of opinions of those who did it the traditional method, I didn’t bend or break anything on my plane during training. 
Go Mooney!!

[Flyler]

So, I made some calls.  I was hoping somewhere along the way, I would be shocked by the cost and it would ruin my Mooney dreams, dooming me to the 100Kt Piper rentals.  To be honest, I still thoroughly enjoy the 100Kt piper rentals, but, you know.  Mooney bug.   So far after talking to my credit union, I could easily put 35% down, have comfortable payments, and afford something around $80k.  Of course it would need to live outside on a tie-down, which does hurt my soul a little bit, but a hangar is drastically more expensive.  I wouldn't mind spending my own money on the interior, but would love to have a machine that someone else has already spent some of their own money into the avionics and maybe some speed mods.

Currently my experience is all in old steam guaged Pipers so I figure as long as I never put myself into a full glass cockpit, any GPS would be LOVELY 

 

The range of prices is so broad that I was hoping someone could set me in the right direction here.   I am guessing I will end up with the short body Mooney due to the cost, but occasionally an M20F shows up that really piques my interest.  Do you guys think something like this is "too cheap" where it would need a ton of work?  Is this a good price range?

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20F&listing_id=2427914&s-type=aircraft#

In case anyone doesn't want to follow the link, here's the quick info:

1966 Mooney M20F, asking $79.5k

Total Time:8727  (that does seem like a lot)

Engine 1 Time:873 SMOH

Avionics:
PS ENGINEERING MA450B AUDIO PANEL
GARMIN GTS 430W GPS/NAV (1GS)
GARMIN GTX 345 XPONDER W/ADSB OUT
GARMIN GTR 200B RADIO

Auto-Pilot:
BRITTAN ACCUTRAK

Other Equip:
ELECTRONICS INTERNATIONAL CGR-30P, CGR-30C COMBO
TACH, MP. ENGINE MONITOR, FUEL

[Rwsavory]

https://www.gardneraircraft.com/planeviewspec.php?id=749

Looks nice to me. This is priced to sell. As opposed to, “yes honey, I listed the airplane for sale.“ Sometimes, owners want to quickly unload what they have and not try to get the last dollar.

[KLRDMD]

47 minutes ago, Flyler said:

Do you guys think something like this is "too cheap" where it would need a ton of work?  Is this a good price range?

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20F&listing_id=2427914&s-type=aircraft#

In case anyone doesn't want to follow the link, here's the quick info:

1966 Mooney M20F, asking $79.5k

Total Time:8727  (that does seem like a lot)

Engine 1 Time:873 SMOH

It is a 1967, not a 1966. Look at the serial #. There are no photos of the interior or panel, so that bothers me. And it is a Florida airplane. Not a fan. Make sure SB208B has been done and check very well for corrosion. It might be good, might not. Getting logs would be a good idea. How much has it flown in each of the last 5 years?

[Utah20Gflyer]

4 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

It is a 1967, not a 1966. Look at the serial #. There are no photos of the interior or panel, so that bothers me. And it is a Florida airplane. Not a fan. Make sure SB208B has been done and check very well for corrosion. It might be good, might not. Getting logs would be a good idea. How much has it flown in each of the last 5 years?

There was one photo of the interior and one of the panel that I saw on the ad.  The interior picture show the interior trim is falling off.  That might not be a big deal except that someone who cared about their airplane would fix that.  
 

Florida is always concerning because of corrosion.  How long has it been there and how much has it been flying?  How has it been stored?
 

I agree that log books would provide a lot of useful information, including how much maintenance it has been getting.   I don’t think the high TT is a huge issue as long as it wasn’t being used as a trainer or rental.  You’ll want to look at the logs for 100 hour inspections to check for that.  
 

This Mooney has the electric gear which means it has some risk if the gear motor goes bad in both money and time.  They are expensive and hard to get.  Some of us prefer the Johnson bar for that reason.  
 

Based on the price I suspect it will require some catch up maintenance.  
 

 

[Flyler]

Thank you everyone for the review on this sample Mooney.  I feel like my expectations are now set, at least somewhat reasonably.  I think something in this price range would be a good entry for me.  It would leave me with plenty of cash for the "catch up maintenance" without hurting my pride too much.  Payments would be very comfortable and leave me with lots of adventuring money.  Things like reupholstering or panel clean up do not scare me at all, and they seem like nice areas where I could make an older plane a lot fresher, and "make it my own" without diving into the A&P territory too much.  To be honest, if it was structurally sound with a good motor and no corrosion, I could handle a lot of ugly paint and interior!

[carusoam]

DINK….  No college bills…?

Does the spouse want to fly?

The first Mooney acquisition is the start of something spectacular…

 

the second Mooney is where you get the chance to buy the perfect forever-plane…. Based on your own experience…

Enjoy the hunt!

We started with a ratty M20C before moving up to the O…

don’t go ratty unless you have to…  

Go Mooney!

best regards,

-a-

[Flyler]

56 minutes ago, carusoam said:

DINK….  No college bills…?

Does the spouse want to fly?

The first Mooney acquisition is the start of something spectacular…

 

the second Mooney is where you get the chance to buy the perfect forever-plane…. Based on your own experience…

Enjoy the hunt!

We started with a ratty M20C before moving up to the O…

don’t go ratty unless you have to…  

Go Mooney!

best regards,

-a-

Honestly, I've just worked a lot in my life, and had the privilege of parents paying half my college tuition.  Worked full time through college as well.  Got really lucky to meet some great mentors along the way.  Always been debt-adverse so I just... well I don't have any other than the mortgage.  Both our cars are paid off and in good shape.  We way underbought on a house that needed a ton of work, and I did 95% of it myself.  Yes we are DINK but tbh the wife's job doesn't chip in much and I have her put all her take-home in her IRA.  I've been sort of stupidly paying an extra $750/mo on my mortgage (back to that debt-adverse mentality) even though it has a really low rate.  Another huge stroke of luck was buying our house in December of 2019, before the market went insane.

Figured I might as well just have some fun instead.  Wife is *thrilled* with the idea of being able to hike all the mountains that we have a hard time reaching in the car for a weekend trip!

[ZuluZulu]

Since you’re going to be parking it outside, you might want a soft preference for planes with recent or at least good-quality paint. But I wouldn’t let it kill the deal if an otherwise good plane needed paint, just factor that in as something you might need to fix to protect it. 

[Pinecone]

3 hours ago, carusoam said:

the second Mooney is where you get the chance to buy the perfect forever-plane…. Based on your own experience…

Unless you do it right the first time.

 

[carusoam]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

Unless you do it right the first time.

 

This would be the best stroke of luck… ^^^^

The C and E often get used as forever planes…

fully grown kids don’t like the backseat very much… (no issue here)

F and J are great forever planes that are often upgraded over the years…

Marauder must be in year 30 with his, Doc Jon’s has been refreshed like a new Ovation…Stinky pants has an older J that has been getting newer every year…for a decade.

Bob’s M20E looked like a new plane when it was 50 years old….
 

The early years of ownership/flying…. Has a steep learning curve to get through….

most people avoid making an extra high powered, or TCd Mooney their first experience…

Not real tough… if you like to train and fly often…

that steep of learning curve takes an extra commitment….

 

We have a few people that have purchased a long body to do their primary training in…

  Buying and selling a Mooney is a more common experience for some…

get the easiest plane to sell while deciding on what your real Mooney is going to be…

Go M20J…. While hunting down your Acclaim!

 

Take the wife to see the nicest J for sale…. Watch her reaction…

Do not take the wife, parents, or kids to see the ratty Mooney.  It can take a few decades to get over that experience… 

modern cars have a tendency to set the expectations bar extra high…

push button start, big tv screens, back up cameras… while we go through elaborate starting techniques depending on temp and field altitude…

Get the M20J 

Get the transition training

Get some miles under the wings, hours in the logs, altitude under the fuselage, and four seasons in the experience log…

Expect after a year… you will have a great plan for what you want to do next….

keep it, get the IR, trade up…

Go Mooney!

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Z W]

That's a nice looking F model at a good price.  I think those late-model F's are a great value in the market.

Having it looked at by a good mechanic is recommended.  Have them look for corrosion.  Most everything else can be fixed reasonably.  If I were buying, I would open up all the inspection panels myself and spend a lot of time looking around the inside with a mirror, flashlight, and borescope camera.

Make sure it has complete logs before you invest much time or money.  Most lenders will not finance a plane with any of them missing.

Be ready for the first year or two to spend a bit on catch-up maintenance.  There is usually some that gets deferred after the owner decides to sell.  Or it has been sitting, and things will break as you start spinning them back up.  I would budget at least $10k per year for those years for maintenance, and hope it was less.  Not trying to scare you off, just something I think all new aircraft owners should know, so you don't have a bad experience.

Good luck!

[bcg]

On 3/3/2024 at 3:41 PM, Schllc said:

I bought an Ovation 3 to finish my ppl and get my instrument rating, I had about 10 or so hours when I purchased.
It is not the most common path but it’s absolutely possible and I do not regret the decision. Year one insurance was about 40% more than I pay now, but not as much as renting a plane, and my reasoning was that I would be establishing habits and routines in the plane I planned to fly. 
It definitely took a lot more time with an instructor than a Cessna would take to be comfortable flying alone, but being that my plan was to go directly into instrument training, I was going to be spending time with an instructor anyway.  I ended up flying with one for close to 100 hours as I was also transitioning to the Mooney.
My instructor had no Mooney experience prior to me.  In retrospect, I would find a mooney specific instructor if I had to do it again. (I was not aware of Mooney space yet)
As long as you are committed to flying frequently , and understand that an advanced airplane as a trainer will take more time, go for it. 
I’m not the only one here that did it this way, and the others who have opined, are pleased with their decision as well. 
Also, contrary to a lot of opinions of those who did it the traditional method, I didn’t bend or break anything on my plane during training. 
Go Mooney!!

You went big, that's awesome.  I've mentioned before that I bought a C with 20 hours in my logbook, finished private in it and went straight into instrument.  18 months later and I've got almost 300 hours in that C and several 1,000+ mile XCs, including a trip to OSH.  It's been a fantastic first plane for me and it was a lot less expensive than a traditional trainer.  Mine was flying about 100 hours a year with the previous owner, I still ended up having to do the starter, battery, generator to alternator conversion (generator failed), an ignition switch (which wasn't a big deal except that it's $800 for the part), overhaul the exhaust and I had a stuck valve that bent a push rod and required a cylinder replacement.  All of that added up to about $10,000 in parts and I did most of the work myself, under supervision.  I also did some avionics work, first replacing a failed KLN90B GPS with a Garmin GPS 175 and then redoing the panel completely at annual, which was another $23,000 or so in parts, again with me doing most of the work under supervision.  The avionics at annual was just supposed to be adding an EDM930 but, I got caught up in scope creep and it kind of got away from me.  I'm really happy with the outcome though, it's been a joy to fly behind the new panel.  I also had an IRAN done on the prop at annual time, mostly because it needed to be repainted and the shops doing the eddy current inspection were starting to complain about it not being airworthy because of the lack of paint.

Anyway, like you, I say if you want the plane and can afford it, get it.  Just be realistic about planning for first year expenses, mine was well cared for but, it's still a 60 year old airplane with 6600 TTAF and 1800 SMOH, stuff is going to break and none of mine was predictable or preventable, other than the bent rod.  I didn't recognize that the morning sickness I was experiencing was probably a stuck valve and didn't get on that as quickly as I should have, I'd like to think that with the knowledge I've gained and the logs from the EDM I would catch that early enough to just ream the valve guides instead of bending a push rod and having to replace the cylinder if it happened again.  If I didn't have such a great shop on my field that was willing to let me work under supervision, my expenses would probably have been 2-3x what they were with labor added.  I'm not going to count the value of my time in the costs because honestly, I don't want an accurate total...lol

[glbtrottr]

I bought a K model while working in IT….30 years ago I was looking for a J model, and a guy I later became friends with named Jim Cardella was brokering a K whose price continued to drop due to it being on probate. Oh well…it was too much plane for me…so I thought.

I flew that airplane all over the Midwest, in rain, snow, over the mountains, over freezing rain, threading the needle between storms after spending oodles in Garmin Candy to help my autopilot. That’s where my hatred for Garmin price gouging began

After needing to paint two of my planes and being outraged at the high cost of some shops, I decided to paint my own planes. While I was at it, I decided to consolidate, and an E model seemed the right choice.

My consolidation efforts failed miserably.

Today, I own 13/14 airplanes and counting. My K model is still with me for now, and so is a for-pleasure, entirely on principle purchase of a mooney mite whose annual I’m about to finish. Sorry, no space in the back seat for any kids…I own a paint, upholstery and avionics shop, so I get the pleasure of bringing some airplanes back to life and bringing some of these beauties back to their previous glory. If only I had more time

On paint:

One of the airplanes I see come by my shop that has phenomenal corrosion durability is the piper comanche for parking outdoors. The factory chose in their wisdom to zinc chromate the airframe inside and out - I’ve seen planes come in with barely a memory of paint hanging on by its fingernails, and once stripped, not an ounce of corrosion…proper preparation and proper primer use is essential for durability.

Nothing lasts longer than Axalta Imron if you’re parking your plane outside.

If all the steel parts aren’t properly treated right after stripping, and primed in short order, premature rust will show up on your paint job a few months after you’ve paid.

Some shops use cheaper brands and types of paint for stripes to save themselves cash. Guess what the first thing to chalk up or peel is, requiring a new paint job?

On upholstery:

We love the look of double stitching. We also love to use basting tape to protect the stitch. Perforated leathers get destroyed by sun and knees, and some people love memory foam. Plenty of outstanding aviation leather brands out there. If you’re using vinyl, there’s cheap and outstanding versions.
The amount of glue used makes a difference.

On avionics: many many shops charge a percentage of hardware sale cost to back into installing hardware and will run away from repairs, troubleshooting or less lucrative jobs in favor for the keeping-up-with the joneses-85k-panel-redo’s with G600 autopilots. Whatever. Take a look at their completed harness work, and don’t get gouged. Some will harmlessly offer a seemingly low hourly rate and then surprise you with “oh my gawd we found thiiiis raaaaats nest behind your panel” doubling your cost. Don’t do it. Get a not to exceed price quote and get a timeframe guarantee.