Fuel costs

[A64Pilot]

Has anyone seen significant drops in Avgas yet?

I ask as we are pumping huge amounts of domestic oil now and auto fuel has dropped a LOT, news this morning quoted $2.48 at one station in Central Fl, they do this every day, the fuel price thing.

Anyway I’ve not seen a corresponding drop in Avgas prices yet, but expect one, or hope for one anyway

[00-Negative]

Price at my home airport (5R8) is $4.10 right now. It has gone down a little in the past several weeks. Regular unleaded is $2.71 and diesel is $3.40.

[Ragsf15e]

Avgas has a much longer lag time than autofuel since it’s made in batches and used over time.  The FBOs paid for the expensive batch we’re using and so charge for it.  We should see some relief over the next month or two if prices stay low.

[aviatoreb]

No!  We are still at $6.75/gal for like a year and a half now.  :-(

[Danb]

Biden Air @ Kilg hanging strong at $8.50 gal, gotta love it.

[Fly Boomer]

4 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Has anyone seen significant drops in Avgas yet?

I ask as we are pumping huge amounts of domestic oil now and auto fuel has dropped a LOT, news this morning quoted $2.48 at one station in Central Fl, they do this every day, the fuel price thing.

Anyway I’ve not seen a corresponding drop in Avgas prices yet, but expect one, or hope for one anyway

I don't know why prices of avgas and auto gas are not more closely tied together, but it's interesting to note that, while we are the world’s largest oil producer, we import a lot for making gasoline, so our gas prices are largely influenced by the global crude oil market.

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/gasoline-prices-explained
 

[A64Pilot]

I’m a dummy, I like graphs. Look at this one, in particular look at the right side, look at what happened in 2020, then look at what’s happened since and in particular where we are right now, I’ll attach another graph that only shows more current dates.

That graph is very closely correlated to energy costs, I think that’s hard to dispute.

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRFPUS2&f=M

https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_crude_oil_field_production

 

I was wondering if anyone had seem lower Avgas prices yet, cause I think they will come down, whether they stay there or not I don’t know.

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, Danb said:

Biden Air @ Kilg hanging strong at $8.50 gal, gotta love it.

It makes one wonder how it is $4.10 in one place and $8.50 in another.

It’s over $8 in Orlando too. Many don’t care, I’ve seen G-650’s buy thousands of gallons of Jet-A at several dollars a gallon more at say Miami than just down the road

Ft Lauderdale Jet is $4.83, in Miami it’s over $9.

IF a G-650ER were nearly empty that’s a cost difference of over $26,000 for ONE tank of fuel.

I’ll divert for 25c a gl myself and only usually take 30 gls or so.

Sort of makes you feel poor huh?

[Pinecone]

My home field has been at $6.32 since August 2022.  

I was super happy to find fuel at $4.85 a year ago, and that was the cheapest I had seen.  So that some places are near $4 even, means they are going down.

But, as mentioned, AVGAS is slower to change price due the amount used, and that batch production.

One other factor for AVGAS is that not all refineries make it, and it can't be pipelined, so you can run into fairly high transport costs (truck).

[Hank]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

It makes one wonder how it is $4.10 in one place and $8.50 in another.

It’s over $8 in Orlando too. Many don’t care, I’ve seen G-650’s buy thousands of gallons of Jet-A at several dollars a gallon more at say Miami than just down the road

Ft Lauderdale Jet is $4.83, in Miami it’s over $9.

IF a G-650ER were nearly empty that’s a cost difference of over $26,000 for ONE tank of fuel.

I’ll divert for 25c a gl myself and only usually take 30 gls or so.

Sort of makes you feel poor huh?

Most of them are in fuel clubs, with significant discounts (I've seen FBO signs advertising 40-50% off for members), but they're Jet-A only.  

[GeeBee]

I can see as old inventory is being replaced, the price is coming down.

Remember that auto gas and avgas are not related. For one thing, the FBO owns the inventory in the tank. They have to sell that inventory at a price they paid for it. Many auto gas stations do not own the inventory in the tank, the oil company does because it is delivered on consignment and thus they are more able to adjust to current market.

[McMooney]

$4.37 last week down here in texas, unfortunately fbos have to make a profit somehow

[jetdriven]

When they buy gas for 4$ they sell it for 6$. When they buy it for 3$ and the spot price goes to 4$, they sell it for 6$. 

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

It makes one wonder how it is $4.10 in one place and $8.50 in another.

It’s over $8 in Orlando too. Many don’t care, I’ve seen G-650’s buy thousands of gallons of Jet-A at several dollars a gallon more at say Miami than just down the road

Ft Lauderdale Jet is $4.83, in Miami it’s over $9.

IF a G-650ER were nearly empty that’s a cost difference of over $26,000 for ONE tank of fuel.

I’ll divert for 25c a gl myself and only usually take 30 gls or so.

Sort of makes you feel poor huh?

People who burn Jet-A, with any sense whatsoever, are on contract pricing, such as this:https://foreflight.com/products/jetfuelx/

[jlunseth]

19 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

It makes one wonder how it is $4.10 in one place and $8.50 in another.

In Minnesota prices range from $7.70 to $4.63, with a $3.68 airport right across the MN-SD border. The highest prices are generally full serve, with a fuel truck and line men, but that does not explain all of the variation. I have been breaking in a new engine lately, which is better done with long duration flights, so I have been flying an hour or so to get to the better fuel prices. 

[A64Pilot]

11 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

People who burn Jet-A, with any sense whatsoever, are on contract pricing, such as this:https://foreflight.com/products/jetfuelx/

I’m familiar with contract fuel, Military for 20 years and of course that’s contract and even delivering aircraft as a Civilian we had contract fuel.

But even contract fuel except I think maybe Military fuel isn’t fixed price, in truth I don’t know what the Military paid. When I worked at the test activity we had special fuel cards and could buy fuel anywhere, so not all Military is contract whatever that’s worth, the political VIP’s I’m sure fly with the same fuel card we had at the test activity.

Contract isn’t available everywhere and when Bill Gates flies I doubt they worry about only stopping at places with it, actually I don’t think most anyone who can afford to own the big jets worry about contract fuel, they worry more about getting the VIP exactly where they like to go, that the Limo or helicopter or whatever is waiting for them, and they have the correct brand of bottled water etc.

Even small FBO’s charge over $30 ea for sandwiches etc for the bizjets and that was ten years ago when I was out and about flying to places where the bizjets frequent.

Most bizjets are Chartered of course and those aren’t the ones I’m talking about, they I’m sure shop fuel as it’s the biggest expense they have.

[A64Pilot]

14 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

In Minnesota prices range from $7.70 to $4.63, with a $3.68 airport right across the MN-SD border. The highest prices are generally full serve, with a fuel truck and line men, but that does not explain all of the variation. I have been breaking in a new engine lately, which is better done with long duration flights, so I have been flying an hour or so to get to the better fuel prices. 

Yes the highest prices are most often associated with the major airports with the fancy FBO’s that roll out the red carpet etc. and the cheapest fuel is a small rural single runway airport where you roll out the hose yourself and fuel yourself and you hope they have the bathroom unlocked. One assumes the higher fuel price pays for the red carpet, fancy lobby and pretty girl. You get what you pay for.

Honestly I avoid the major airports myself and will always choose the small rural one, I just don’t enjoy the congestion, having to get the information and contact clearance delivery etc for taxi clearance. Some enjoy the game, for me it got old sitting in the heat waiting for my turn.

I used to enjoy the planning etc and executing an IFR flight plan, SIDS and STARs etc. Now I enjoy a lazy warm spring afternoon flying or maybe even Dawn Patrol

Part of getting old I guess.

[A64Pilot]

I’ll never forget flying to Americus Ga and hearing on the radio a flight of two Challengers on a ten mile final, thinking that’s silly why would two Ultralight’s call ten miles out, to see once they got closer that it was two Challenger wide body bizjets.

Bill Gates flew in from California to deliver a birthday card to Jimmy Carter, pretty much shutting down the airport to do so, you couldn’t park in front of the FBO or get fuel etc. the Challengers were there, parked intentionally to take up the whole ramp, I guess for security?

I guess it takes two Challengers to fly Bill Gates? A Private one for him and another for his security maybe?

[Hank]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Honestly I avoid the major airports myself and will always choose the small rural one, I just don’t enjoy the congestion, having to get the information and contact clearance delivery etc for taxi clearance. Some enjoy the game, for me it got old sitting in the heat waiting for my turn.

I used to enjoy the planning etc and executing an IFR flight plan, SIDS and STARs etc. Now I enjoy a lazy warm spring afternoon flying or maybe even Dawn Patrol

Part of getting old I guess.

Yeah, me too, but it's not from getting old--I prefer living in the country. Driving across Atlanta is more big city headaches than I care to deal with, and it always makes me happy that I don't live somewhere like that!!

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Bill Gates flew in from California to deliver a birthday card to Jimmy Carter, pretty much shutting down the airport to do so, you couldn’t park in front of the FBO or get fuel etc. the Challengers were there, parked intentionally to take up the whole ramp, I guess for security?

I guess it takes two Challengers to fly Bill Gates? A Private one for him and another for his security maybe?

The second one is backup, in case the primary has a problem. But blocking the entire ramp is just downright rude! Freaking @ssholes!!

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I’m familiar with contract fuel, Military for 20 years and of course that’s contract and even delivering aircraft as a Civilian we had contract fuel.

But even contract fuel except I think maybe Military fuel isn’t fixed price, in truth I don’t know what the Military paid. When I worked at the test activity we had special fuel cards and could buy fuel anywhere, so not all Military is contract whatever that’s worth, the political VIP’s I’m sure fly with the same fuel card we had at the test activity.

Contract isn’t available everywhere and when Bill Gates flies I doubt they worry about only stopping at places with it, actually I don’t think most anyone who can afford to own the big jets worry about contract fuel, they worry more about getting the VIP exactly where they like to go, that the Limo or helicopter or whatever is waiting for them, and they have the correct brand of bottled water etc.

Even small FBO’s charge over $30 ea for sandwiches etc for the bizjets and that was ten years ago when I was out and about flying to places where the bizjets frequent.

Most bizjets are Chartered of course and those aren’t the ones I’m talking about, they I’m sure shop fuel as it’s the biggest expense they have.

I have a friend who flies corporate jets and has for close to 40 years. He says everyone he knows uses CAA. https://caa.org/

He says that sometimes it's half of what the posted price is, but is always a substantial discount.

[A64Pilot]

27 minutes ago, Hank said:

But blocking the entire ramp is just downright rude! Freaking @ssholes!!

I spoke to the airport manager about it, a good friend named Frankie Williams, he was one of our dealers, but Frankie pretty much said yes it’s arrogant, but you can’t do anything about it, there is no rule against it and they are entitled they think.

Same guy of course preaches about our carbon foot print yet burns thousands of gallons of Jet to deliver a card.

[A64Pilot]

5 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I have a friend who flies corporate jets and has for close to 40 years. He says everyone he knows uses CAA. https://caa.org/

He says that sometimes it's half of what the posted price is, but is always a substantial discount.

OK, I believe you.

What’s the logic of having a $9 sticker price if you never sell any of it then?

[Hank]

6 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

OK, I believe you.

What’s the logic of having a $9 sticker price if you never sell any of it then?

Because sometimes you do.

[T. Peterson]

On 1/19/2024 at 2:03 PM, A64Pilot said:

I’m a dummy, I like graphs. Look at this one, in particular look at the right side, look at what happened in 2020, then look at what’s happened since and in particular where we are right now, I’ll attach another graph that only shows more current dates.

That graph is very closely correlated to energy costs, I think that’s hard to dispute.

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRFPUS2&f=M

https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_crude_oil_field_production

 

I was wondering if anyone had seem lower Avgas prices yet, cause I think they will come down, whether they stay there or not I don’t know.

Looking at the Foreflight map it does look to me that avgas is trending down. There are even some airports that show less than 4.00 a gallon.

[amillet]

6 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

Looking at the Foreflight map it does look to me that avgas is trending down. There are even some airports that show less than 4.00 a gallon.

Not where I live