Completely in the Ear Canal Hearing Aides and Bose A 20 Headsets

[Speed Merchant]

Hi

i am considering getting hearings aides that are compatable with the ANC A20 Bose. Does anyone have any experience with hearing aides with A20s? Any suggestions will be appreciated.

Thanks

[cliffy]

I've got top of the line Phonak and the Bose works fine with them  

I tend to take my aids off before flight as I find the ANC in the Bose does such a good job I don't need the aids when I use them. 

I got the dual wifi option and really like it for phone and computer at the same time. 

Are you using completely in the ear aids for a hearing reason or just because you think they might be needed for the Bose?

I have the RIC style not completely in the ear. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by cliffy

[hubcap]

I wear Widex hearing aids. No complaints with or without while wearing the Bose.

[Pinecone]

Anyone with experience with them an David Clark ANR headsets?

I think I am getting to the point I need them.

[A64Pilot]

Do you need them with the headsets?

Can’t you just turn up the headsets? Isn’t that to some extent what aids do? I assume good ones probably boost high freqs because that’s what we lose first or most, but again assuming but all speech is mostly mid freq so you don’t need the high freq boost to hear the radio?

Then finally if good hearing aids do actually boost high freqs and since those are the most damaging, do you really want to wear them flying? It would seem, maybe if worn they could actually do harm?

I don’t need them myself, yet but concede those days are coming and am interested in learning, because it’s likely the techs at the VA probably have no idea about their use for flying. I think I’d use the VA because I’ve heard this is one of those things they do well, I can tell you that they do CPAP a lot better than Tricare does too. 

Does it matter who’s ANR? why?

[Pinecone]

The good ones start with a good audiogram and they specifically boost those that YOU need to have boosted.

[A64Pilot]

18 hours ago, Pinecone said:

The good ones start with a good audiogram and they specifically boost those that YOU need to have boosted.

Understood and for me that’s about 20-25 khz and above, I have 20 years of audiograms from 82 to 03 that show a slow degradation in hearing in the higher freqs. I think my hearing degradation is typical.

It’s high freq we lose first and why we have trouble understanding children etc. We lose high freq first because we are exposed to damaging levels of high freq., and due to age.

Since we have lost that hearing any good aid will boost high freq, my question is as we have lost hearing in that freq, do we want that freq boosted when we are in something that has potentially damaging levels of high freq? Anything that fits in your ear can’t in truth produce anything but higher frequencies any way due to the size of the driver.

Wouldn't it be better to block that freq and only boost the mid range frequencies where speech is? In other words wouldn’t it be better to take the aids out when flying?

I’m pretty sure that good ANR blocks primarily lower frequencies , So why would we want to boost the frequencies that cause damage?

 

 

[Pinecone]

Most audiograms only go to 16 KHz.   The normal hearing range for humans is 20 Hz to 20 kHz.  Some babies can hear slightly above 20 kHz.

The hearing loss that causes most problems is in the 2kHz - 5kHz area, as that is the area of speech.  That is also the range you tend to lose from airplanes, cars, and shooting.

[A64Pilot]

Maybe it was 2.5 KHZ then, that would make more sense, yes I know 20 KHZ is pretty much at the end of human hearing and probably only young people can hear it, reason speakers that claim 30 khz or higher are playing numbers games.

ANR works in the 70 hz to 300 Hz range, well below the frequencies that are really damaging, and the reason why headsets that aren’t good passive sets but rely on ANR aren’t the best to protect your hearing, like Bose for instance, the best is a very good passive headset with ANR, like taking a good DC headset and having an ANR kit installed.

After getting out I had ANR kits installed in my HGU-56P’s by these guys and was very pleased with the results, they have their own line of headsets and will take your favorite pair of DC’s or whatever and make them ANR, that gives the best of both worlds, good passive headsets with ANR.

https://www.headsetsinc.com

Army used CEP’s, essentially foam ear plugs with tiny drivers in them, but did not go with ANR, because that doesn’t really protect your hearing, but the ear plugs did and of course the tiny drivers gave good coms. 

https://www.cep-usa.com/military-aviation

However in truth most piston engine GA aircraft aren’t really damaging, the noise is fatiguing but not usually damaging

 

[Fly Boomer]

45 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

The hearing loss that causes most problems is in the 2kHz - 5kHz area, as that is the area of speech. 

In the world of telephony (before mobile phones) the speech band was 300-3KHz.  It sounded a bit flat, but easily understood.

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

It’s high freq we lose first and why we have trouble understanding children etc. We lose high freq first because we are exposed to damaging levels of high freq., and due to age.

I think I read once that men lose high-frequency hearing (voices of women), and women lose low-frequency hearing (voices of men).  Nice combination?

[A64Pilot]

On 9/17/2023 at 2:41 PM, Fly Boomer said:

In the world of telephony (before mobile phones) the speech band was 300-3KHz.  It sounded a bit flat, but easily understood.

I think most of our radios fall into that category.

Point I was trying to make was that ANR doesn’t protect us from the frequencies that are most damaging, ANR clips at about 300 hz on average so it’s low freq only.

Low freq does interfere with speech understanding of course and is fatiguing. (any noise is) sort of the definition of noise

I actually have very little hearing loss compared to an average Military pilot with my hours, reason is I’m sure that for a few years I wore foam ear plugs under my helmet, later when I was in Savannah I had special custom fit ear plugs made by an Audiologist, there was a hole in the center that was shaped in such a manner that it blocked high frequencies but allowed speech frequencies through, apparently Professional musicians wear similar devices but theirs are tuned to attenuate all frequencies so the hear their music correctly, just at a lower volume. That was thirty years ago I’m sure they are likely better now.

It just seems to me to wear a device that boosts high frequencies in apparently a high volume high frequency environment, may not be the best idea and removing them when flying is best? But then surely a good pair just won’t amplify enough to cause harm? That was my question really

In truth I don’t think most GA airplanes are that damaging really, but that’s neither heat nor there.

 

[Pinecone]

FYI, ANR works up to around 500 Hz.  Above that range, you are relying on the passive noise reduction of the muffs.  Just like non-ANR headsets.

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/893202O/active-noise-reduction-anr-in-hearing-protection.pdf?fn=05 Active Noise Reduction (ANR#:~:text=Notice that up through approximately,effect at the higher frequencies.

 

[A64Pilot]

They could go to 500hz but aviation headsets most often don’t. They clip at 300 intentionally so as to not suppress speech, but I suspect it’s also cheaper and lighter because I think that way. This is one of the better articles https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/headset-buyers-guide-2015/

Your absolutely correct in that for the very limited range that ANR does suppress that we are reliant on how well the headset functions passively to protect our hearing, which means some of the very popular ones like Bose which aren’t good passively also don’t protect as well. Why aren’t they good passive headsets? I believe primarily it’s marketing, haven’t we all been to the Bose booth where there is a rumble playing through a speaker and you put on the headsets and are amazed at the sound reduction? Try that with a good passive headset equipped with ANR and there is a lot less “magic” simply because of the good passive reduction is still there when the ANR is turned off, the poorer the passive, the greater the difference ANR off and on, so we of course think they are better headsets because of the bigger difference between off and on.

Plus to be good passive headsets they would have to be a little heavier and probably clunkier too.

In my opinion the Lightspeed is far superior, but not many wouldn’t say it’s not bigger, heavier even though it uses Magnesium to keep the weight down and just clunkier than a Bose, Bose wins hands down on let’s call it curb appeal, just too bad that it doesn’t perform as well in its primary function.

Which is sort of strange really, I had the first generation of the Bose ANR, it was heavy, big and clunky, but performed really well, much better than the newer models. Remember them, they had clear plastic ear cups to display the electronics, marketing was in force from the beginning.

DNR or Dynamic Noise Reduction is the tech that could really protect our hearing, it’s more expensive, but I suspect we will see it more and more frequently in the high buck headsets.

But I think the takeaway is still as it’s always been that if you really want to protect your hearing you should wear ear plugs, wear ANR or not, but turn up the speaker volume so you can hear the radios.

I am not saying ANR is bad, just saying that it doesn’t protect us from the frequencies that most frequently cause damage, we need good passive for that or DNR when or if it becomes widespread. They may already be for all I know, I’m too old and poor to lust after the latest greatest thing like I used to.

I admit to no longer wearing the foam ear plugs, but then I don’t think our Mooney’s are all that damaging either, if GA was that damaging I would be stone deaf because I grew up in the back seat of a C-182 back when no one wore headsets, headset didn’t really become a “thing” until late 70’s I think. 

I was an early adopter and we all had to carry around portable intercoms because nothing you could rent had an intercom.

I just did a quick search but it seems at least one hearing aid company recommends in noisy environments to remove the aids and wear hearing protection 

https://www.beltonesouth.com/is-it-safe-to-wear-hearing-aids-in-a-loud-environment#:~:text=Although you may not hear,in environments that are noisy.

But OSHA seems to indicate that in fact some hearing aids can actually be hearing protectors too, so I guess if you have a model that does block noise that you should wear them when you fly. Seems like a model that also reduced noise as well as functioned as an aid could well be just what is wanted for flying?

Knowing nothing about aids yet, I wonder how common those are?

 https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2014-09-02

 

[Pinecone]

You are missing the point.  The ANR works UP To 500 Hz.  So 300 Hz is lower and easier and less protective.

All that OSHA letter is saying is that if the hearing aid manufacturer can provide the results of testing to the standard (and has an assigned NRR), then they would be considered as hearing protectors at that level.

I suspect most in the ear hearing aids provide some protection as they fill the ear canal and block the noise entering directly which they are limited to the sound level with will produce in the ear canal.

I think that many ear bud products are also limited to prevent hearing loss.  Otherwise some users would crank them up and damage their hearing.

[Fly Boomer]

13 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

But then surely a good pair just won’t amplify enough to cause harm? That was my question really

I haven't had to go there yet, but from observing others getting the top quality aids, I think they determine what your frequency-response hearing curve looks like, and then boost only the sagging parts of the curve.  The idea is to get your perceived frequency-response curve back to normal.  Or what passes for "normal" these days.  Basically, it's just a microscopic version of what we used to call a graphical equalizer to compensate for the imperfections in the media (vinyl back in the day), the stylus, the cartridge, the amplifiers, the speakers, and the room.

EDIT:  Never mind.  I thought we were talking about hearing loss and hearing aids.

[midlifeflyer]

7 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I haven't had to go there yet, but from observing others getting the top quality aids, I think they determine what your frequency-response hearing curve looks like, and then boost only the sagging parts of the curve.  The idea is to get your perceived frequency-response curve back to normal. 

I think this is what Lightspeed is trying to accomplish with the Delta Zulu. I flew with someone last week who wears hearing aids - except in the airplane with his Delta Zulus. He says they are perfect.

[jlunseth]

On 9/11/2023 at 7:11 PM, cliffy said:

I've got top of the line Phonak and the Bose works fine with them  

I tend to take my aids off before flight as I find the ANC in the Bose does such a good job I don't need the aids when I use them. 

I got the dual wifi option and really like it for phone and computer at the same time. 

Are you using completely in the ear aids for a hearing reason or just because you think they might be needed for the Bose?

I have the RIC style not completely in the ear. 

Same for me, I am an old guy with high frequency hearing loss, but have a Bose A10 headset and don’t need aids to hear well in the cockpit. Frankly, I have tried very expensive hearing aids and since they do not have noise cancelling and only increase the volume of all sounds in certain high frequencies, I found hearing aids to be worse than using my own admittedly not great hearing. The sound of clatter in a restaurant or background at a party was so deafening it was impossible to hear anything.  Besides, they itch.

[MooneyMitch]

On 9/17/2023 at 11:45 AM, Fly Boomer said:

I think I read once that men lose high-frequency hearing (voices of women), and women lose low-frequency hearing (voices of men).  Nice combination?

Isn't that called selective hearing?  A commonality between husband and wife.......... 

[ArtVandelay]

I think I read once that men lose high-frequency hearing (voices of women), and women lose low-frequency hearing (voices of men).  Nice combination?

And they say God doesn’t have a sense of humor.