Possible wing change required, looking for options

[Urs_Wildermuth]

Folks, question to run by you guys.

I have been informed by my maintenance that my wing shows some signs of possible upcoming corrosion problems. What has been discovered so far has been treated and the plane is airworthy but mid term I will have to look at different options. One of those being a wing change for a corrosion free wing.

I know that this has been done before. But my major problem is that I am in Europe, not in the US where 99% of all spare parts sit.

First of all, I would need a wing which fits onto a 1965 Mooney M20C. I believe the C - and E- wings are the same?

Do exchange wings usually include the main landing gear?

Then I would quite possibly either need to ship it over here or to fly the airplane over to the US to do the change there.

Or of course, if there was a wing available in Europe it would make things a LOT easier.

How "flexible" are we with the wing itself? Are the wings for the E, G or F series applicable, e.g. can a E, G or F wing be used for this purpose?

 

As I said, it's not yet a "life and grim reaper" situation but I am kind of looking to avoid getting to that point. So thoughts and ideas or pointers to available wings are appreciated, both in the open or by PM.

 

Best regards

Urs

Edited September 8, 2023 by Urs_Wildermuth

[bcg]

I'm interested to hear the replies on this. I've seen a Mooney disassembled and the wings don't come off. Rather, you remove the tail and nose, leaving a complete wing all the way across, including the cockpit. Mooneys were out together as a monowing with a roll cage so replacing 1 side would be a challenge I'd like to know how to accomplish, I'm not sure it can be. At least not economically.

Good luck, I hope I'm wrong.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[M20F]

I would call Don Maxwell he could help secure a good wing and then you could ship it in an ocean container.  If you were extremely adventurous and it is a N numbered plane it would probably be cheaper to fly to KGGG, have him swap, and then fly it back.  Labor, parts, etc. as you point out will be less in USA. 

[dzeleski]

2 hours ago, bcg said:

I'm interested to hear the replies on this. I've seen a Mooney disassembled and the wings don't come off. Rather, you remove the tail and nose, leaving a complete wing all the way across, including the cockpit. Mooneys were out together as a monowing with a roll cage so replacing 1 side would be a challenge I'd like to know how to accomplish, I'm not sure it can be. At least not economically.

Good luck, I hope I'm wrong.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk
 

The wing is one piece but the cockpit can come off as well. I dont know the details of that but Air Mods has some pictures on their site showing it: https://www.airmodsflightcenter.com/shop-project

Dave at AirMods is probably a good call to make as well, they seemingly are always working on some wild project every time I go over there.

[Fly Boomer]

14 hours ago, Urs_Wildermuth said:

Then I would quite possibly either need to ship it over here or to fly the airplane over to the US to do the change there.

I am not sure what would be required to ship a wing so, at first glance, bringing the whole airplane here would sound like a good idea.  That said, if you have not made the crossing before, there is a lot of risk.

[bcg]

8 hours ago, dzeleski said:

The wing is one piece but the cockpit can come off as well. I dont know the details of that but Air Mods has some pictures on their site showing it: https://www.airmodsflightcenter.com/shop-project

Dave at AirMods is probably a good call to make as well, they seemingly are always working on some wild project every time I go over there.

I looked at those pics from your link, it's still one solid wing with the cockpit removed so I'm still unsure how you would safely replace just one side.  Sure, you can weld it but, can it be done in a way that won't reduce strength and/or cost more than scrapping the damaged plane out and replacing it?

[Fly Boomer]

10 hours ago, bcg said:

I've seen a Mooney disassembled and the wings don't come off.

Wings come off, but it's easier to transport an airplane by taking the tail off.

[bcg]

7 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Wings come off, but it's easier to transport an airplane by taking the tail off.

I'm happy to be wrong here but, that sure looks like one solid wing to me.

[Fly Boomer]

1 minute ago, bcg said:

I'm happy to be wrong here but, that sure looks like one solid wing to me.

When I said "wings" I meant as a unit.  The wings in your picture have been de-mated from the cabin, but it's more work than the tail removal.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, bcg said:

I looked at those pics from your link, it's still one solid wing with the cockpit removed so I'm still unsure how you would safely replace just one side.  Sure, you can weld it but, can it be done in a way that won't reduce strength and/or cost more than scrapping the damaged plane out and replacing it?

Weld what? There are no welds in the Mooney wing. Deconstructing the spar in and of itself would likely render the wing a total loss.

[Shadrach]

9 hours ago, dzeleski said:

The wing is one piece but the cockpit can come off as well. I dont know the details of that but Air Mods has some pictures on their site showing it: https://www.airmodsflightcenter.com/shop-project

Dave at AirMods is probably a good call to make as well, they seemingly are always working on some wild project every time I go over there.

The wing is bolted to the steel cage. control tubes, plumbing, wiring, aluminum fairings, etc. must be removed/released before the fuselage can be removed from the wing.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, bcg said:

I'm happy to be wrong here but, that sure looks like one solid wing to me.

You’re not wrong, just taking things too literally. I assure you that boomer and every one else in this thread is familiar with the construction of the Mooney wing. It is built up as a single unit at the factory in a Jig. The wings could be separated by removing the buck bolts and spar cap, but doing so would likely render the wings to the scrap heap.

[dzeleski]

2 hours ago, bcg said:

I looked at those pics from your link, it's still one solid wing with the cockpit removed so I'm still unsure how you would safely replace just one side.  Sure, you can weld it but, can it be done in a way that won't reduce strength and/or cost more than scrapping the damaged plane out and replacing it?

I stated in my reply to you that it’s a single piece wing. You stated that the cockpit is attached to the wing and cannot come apart. That isnt true which is why I shared that link with those photos. The wings can exist separated from the cockpit.

[bcg]

I stated in my reply to you that it’s a single piece wing. You stated that the cockpit is attached to the wing and cannot come apart. That isnt true which is why I shared that link with those photos. The wings can exist separated from the cockpit.

I accept that, my point originally was that I don't believe you can replace just one side, it's a solid wing from end to end. I've said more than once I may be wrong and it's entirely possible that I am but right now, I think we're both right.

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[A64Pilot]

My bet is that if you keep it soaked with Corrosion-X and keep it in a hangar there will be zero, as in no further corrosion. It will still be flying when you aren’t.

Idea is of course to keep it dry.

I used to maintain helicopters that were often flown over salt water, they had magnesium gear boxes and magnesium and salt water don’t mix. Corrosion-X honestly pretty much stopped all corrosion, but it’s not a one time application, for max protection it’s a yearly application. We sprayed the gearboxes whenever we washed them, the corrosion occurred in the seam where they were bolted to another component as it was bare metal there, the Corrosion-X would wick in by I guess capillary attraction.

[A64Pilot]

42 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

You’re not wrong, just taking things too literally. I assure you that boomer and every one else in this thread is familiar with the construction of the Mooney wing. It is built up as a single unit at the factory in a Jig. The wings could be separated by removing the buck bolts and spar cap, but doing so would likely render the wings to the scrap heap.

You could de-mate the wings, but why? If you can change spar caps you certainly can de-mate wings

Never pulled them but assume you have to get them off the aircraft first so why would anyone want to do the work to de-mate them and put them back together?

[Shadrach]

17 hours ago, Urs_Wildermuth said:

Folks, question to run by you guys.

I have been informed by my maintenance that my wing shows some signs of possible upcoming corrosion problems. What has been discovered so far has been treated and the plane is airworthy but mid term I will have to look at different options. One of those being a wing change for a corrosion free wing.

I know that this has been done before. But my major problem is that I am in Europe, not in the US where 99% of all spare parts sit.

First of all, I would need a wing which fits onto a 1965 Mooney M20C. I believe the C - and E- wings are the same?

Do exchange wings usually include the main landing gear?

Then I would quite possibly either need to ship it over here or to fly the airplane over to the US to do the change there.

Or of course, if there was a wing available in Europe it would make things a LOT easier.

How "flexible" are we with the wing itself? Are the wings for the E, G or F series applicable, e.g. can a E, G or F wing be used for this purpose?

 

As I said, it's not yet a "life and grim reaper" situation but I am kind of looking to avoid getting to that point. So thoughts and ideas or pointers to available wings are appreciated, both in the open or by PM.

 

Best regards

Urs

Urs, where is the corrosion and what type. I am suspect of the premise that you’ve been told that it is currently airworthy, but that you should plan for it not to be in the future. Spar caps, stub spars, and other wing components are replaceable and much easier to ship than a complete wing. Whether the factory has parts is another question. Any non twisted vintage metal Mooney wing should work that would include C, D, E, F and G model wings.

[Urs_Wildermuth]

12 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Spar caps, stub spars, and other wing components are replaceable and much easier to ship than a complete wing.

Oh, that is indeed valuable information, as I was always under the impression that this is not the case.

I don't know yet just what it is they are concerned with, the main thing is that everyone is spooked by wing spar or spar cap corrosion (usually behind the seats) and I've seen lots of Mooneys scrapped just because of this. So I want to be pro-active and try to source a solution before the problem becomes so that we need one RIGHT NOW. What they said is they have seen some possible traces of corrosion which they are not sure what it is and if it progresses or not. I have to add that the guy who is in charge of this is VERY experienced with vintage airplanes much older than the Mooney and he is very good at treating corrosion and finding solutions where others may call the reaper. So if he sees something that disturbs him, it certainly gets my undivided attention.

I will let them know and also try to find out who can do these kinds of repairs in Europe. If the spar cap and stub spars can indeed be exchanged and the exchange makes sense financially vs a new wing, then hell yea.

12 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Any non twisted vintage metal Mooney wing should work that would include C, D, E, F and G model wings.

Now that is also very interesting, particularly as an "F" Wing would mean 64 USG fuel capacity. Would that wing have an acceptable part nr which would be accepted by EASA as a valid replacement? If so, that would definitly be interesting.

 

Basically, the plan these next years would be the following:

- Replace all windows as they have become quite scratched and pretty bad

- Repaint the whole airplane.

But obvioulsy befor any of the above is done, we need to make sure that we are not going to end up with a nicely done airplane which then turns into a wreckable airframe due to underlaying corrosion issues.

[Urs_Wildermuth]

23 hours ago, M20F said:

I would call Don Maxwell he could help secure a good wing iand then you could ship it in an ocean container.  If you were extremely adventurous and it is a N numbered plane it would probably be cheaper to fly to KGGG, have him swap, and then fly it back.  Labor, parts, etc. as you point out will be less in USA. 

Don is certainly going to be my Nr1 go to guy but I need more facts on the table before I talk to him. But yea, if I were in the US, I'd be on my way to Longview now. And no, the airplane is not N-reg (EASA) and I am in Zurich, Switzerland. But flying it there sounds like a great project too, just that by the time I get time off to do that it may be too late if what ever they found progresses.

 

[Shadrach]

4 minutes ago, Urs_Wildermuth said:

Oh, that is indeed valuable information, as I was always under the impression that this is not the case.

I don't know yet just what it is they are concerned with, the main thing is that everyone is spooked by wing spar or spar cap corrosion (usually behind the seats) and I've seen lots of Mooneys scrapped just because of this. So I want to be pro-active and try to source a solution before the problem becomes so that we need one RIGHT NOW. What they said is they have seen some possible traces of corrosion which they are not sure what it is and if it progresses or not. I have to add that the guy who is in charge of this is VERY experienced with vintage airplanes much older than the Mooney and he is very good at treating corrosion and finding solutions where others may call the reaper. So if he sees something that disturbs him, it certainly gets my undivided attention.

I will let them know and also try to find out who can do these kinds of repairs in Europe. If the spar cap and stub spars can indeed be exchanged and the exchange makes sense financially vs a new wing, then hell yea.

Now that is also very interesting, particularly as an "F" Wing would mean 64 USG fuel capacity. Would that wing have an acceptable part nr which would be accepted by EASA as a valid replacement? If so, that would definitly be interesting.

 

Basically, the plan these next years would be the following:

- Replace all windows as they have become quite scratched and pretty bad

- Repaint the whole airplane.

But obvioulsy befor any of the above is done, we need to make sure that we are not going to end up with a nicely done airplane which then turns into a wreckable airframe due to underlaying corrosion issues.

F to C is not the same part number and I can’t speak to EASA. My suspicion is that as a governing body they are even more challenging than the FAA. From a practical standpoint, I believe the span, mounts and control configurations are identical. I seem to remember someone putting an F wing on an E model many years ago.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I would also suggest that if the plane is currently airworthy and the offending corrosion removed, and the affected areas treated with a corrosion resistant coating then why would the material continue to deteriorate?  If further corrosion is prevented the plane should remain airworthy indefinitely.  

[Urs_Wildermuth]

2 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

if the plane is currently airworthy and the offending corrosion removed, and the affected areas treated with a corrosion resistant coating then why would the material continue to deteriorate?  If further corrosion is prevented the plane should remain airworthy indefinitely.  

Yes, that is what I have to find out. Very rapidly.

At the moment from my position this is simply a quest for information and for options, in case that more surfaces to the point where we have an airworthiness problem. Also I want to make darn sure I don't paint a wing which has a time bomb hidden some place. We had some corrosion removed following my incident and the prolonged inactivity which followed. And some say, corrosion is like cancer, once it starts somewhere, it will eventually resurface, the question is simply when and where. And of course to what extent. 

 

 

[Urs_Wildermuth]

On 9/9/2023 at 2:41 AM, A64Pilot said:

Corrosion-X

Thanks, which one to buy? There is a red can which sais it lubricant and a blue Corrosion-X HD which sais it's a non-hardening film?

The airplane is hangared.