First time airplane owner - considering a 1964 M20E - advice?

[ElisiumNate]

Hey all! First time post, brand new here but totally seeing the love for Mooneys! I am a PPL (130 hours) and just finished my complex endorsement in a Piper Arrow.  I want to buy an airplane, and the speed, efficiency, and even price of the Mooney C and E models are very appealing! 

YouTube is full of showboating, so I'd like to see if I can get some real advice from real owners here about whether a M20 C, E (or other model) would be a good choice for a new airplane owner.  

Thanks for your time! 

[hammdo]

Welcome! Mooney is a great plane. Best to define your mission - how many people you want to carry, equipment you want, budget, etc. Expect  yearly cost to be $18k-$20k - normal things plus anything you’ll want to do. First year ownership usually will be higher even for a well maintained plane - Check out my thread - I had a B and now own a C.

The B:

C/E are great - the extra 20 hp of the E helps for sure. 
 

Take your time and research, LOTS of great info here. Vintage Mooneys are great.

Enjoy the search, price insurance to get an idea of costs and look for a plane that has as much modern equipment as you want… Acquisition cost is only a small part of ownership.

-Don

[MikeOH]

What Don said.

Not being presumptuous but he is right that ongoing costs will make purchase price a distant memory after a few years of ownership so make sure you can afford more than the purchase price.

Things you want to understand before ‘jumping in’ include insurance as a low time complex pilot, hangar cost in your area are the first that come to mind.

Other advice from my perspective, locate the plane close to home/work. If you have drive an hour each way you may not fly much!

Be able to pay for an engine overhaul. Even a low time engine is no guarantee. Two schools of thought on engine time: buy low time and bet it will last, or buy a run-out and control the quality of overhaul (plane price discounted accordingly). The latter is what I did: bought with around 2100 SMOH; six years later and 500 hours more still running well. But, I bought expecting to OH in the first year or two.

My repeated advice is to buy a plane that has been recently and continuously flown. The previous owner of my plane flew it 100 hours a year for the 13 years he owned it. I suspect that has a lot to do with my “good luck.” Don’t buy a plane that’s been sitting outside unflown for a couple years

[gmonnig]

C and E models make great first planes! My friend bought his C with less than 100hrs TT. A good plane in this market will demand a pretty high price. There are deals out there but as others have said, purchase price is kind of the beginning. You will want to do upgrades, so best find a plane with a lot of the stuff already done. I have a problem where I buy planes and upgrade them. It's my hobby but it's not financially smart. I have put about $40k+ in the last 1.5yrs in my E and I still want to install the GFC500 autopilot ($15k). I have held off since it will put me well into M20J/K territory if I sell this plane. 
 

I still can't believe the prices of planes right now. Seeing 172s and Cherokees selling in the $120k+ when you can get a 150kt E for the same price or less. Crazy.

[hammdo]

Agree, my last upgrade is an autopilot. I have most of the upgrades I want done but that. Paint is the very last thing for mine…

I like flying too much to wait 2 to 3 months…

-Don

[ElisiumNate]

Outstanding feedback, thanks so much for the warm welcome! My mission will just be to build time, earn my IFR certificate, and travel cross-country with maybe 1 passenger, but mostly my cat and some baggage. After that I'd like to get my CFI and Commercial for the insurance break and added safety and knowledge.  Teaching others to fly would be tremendously rewarding, though I won't be doing it in my own Mooney.  I'd love to also fly missions for Life Flight and Pilots N Paws when I accumulate enough hours for each. 

Budget - I'm looking for something under $100k so that I can keep a reserve on hand for either upgrades, engine OH, or surprises in that first annual.  I found a really great deal on a plane, and if allowed, I'll post the link here for you all to see.  It's a 1964 M20E, TT 2919, TSMOH 1506 (but that was in 1976).  The panel is sweet.  Dual G5s, GNX 375, JPI EDM 900! And... $74k.  

Would love your inputs if that is OK to share a link like that on here.  It's all the way out in Upland, CA and I'm in Moline IL so even seeing the plane is going to be tricky.  I like the advice of being ready to overhaul her and then manage the life of the engine myself.  The airframe has super low time and complete logs.  Thanks everyone! 

[redbaron1982]

24 minutes ago, ElisiumNate said:

Outstanding feedback, thanks so much for the warm welcome! My mission will just be to build time, earn my IFR certificate, and travel cross-country with maybe 1 passenger, but mostly my cat and some baggage. After that I'd like to get my CFI and Commercial for the insurance break and added safety and knowledge.  Teaching others to fly would be tremendously rewarding, though I won't be doing it in my own Mooney.  I'd love to also fly missions for Life Flight and Pilots N Paws when I accumulate enough hours for each. 

Budget - I'm looking for something under $100k so that I can keep a reserve on hand for either upgrades, engine OH, or surprises in that first annual.  I found a really great deal on a plane, and if allowed, I'll post the link here for you all to see.  It's a 1964 M20E, TT 2919, TSMOH 1506 (but that was in 1976).  The panel is sweet.  Dual G5s, GNX 375, JPI EDM 900! And... $74k.  

Would love your inputs if that is OK to share a link like that on here.  It's all the way out in Upland, CA and I'm in Moline IL so even seeing the plane is going to be tricky.  I like the advice of being ready to overhaul her and then manage the life of the engine myself.  The airframe has super low time and complete logs.  Thanks everyone! 

Yeah, you can share links here. MS is quite open in regards on what you can post and links you can post. You add links to other forums and moderates are usually ok with that.

As a relatively new first owner myself, I cannot stress more the fact that the purchase price is just the down payment, and I think this is specially true for old airplanes. You can be lucky, but plan to have an ongoing high maintenance cost. Things brake, even more in a machine that is 60 years old like the one you mentioned for instance. And anything in aviation is expensive.

You can save some costs by doing some of the maintenance yourself, but you need to have an A&P that is ok to work with you like this, and you have to have a lot of time to spend working on the airplane.

With my limited experience I can say that owning an airplane (specially an old one) requires either lots of time and lots of money, or some time and tons of money.

[ElisiumNate]

Here she is - https://shorturl.at/otBQ4

What do you all think?? 

[Fly Boomer]

33 minutes ago, ElisiumNate said:

Would love your inputs if that is OK to share a link like that on here.  It's all the way out in Upland, CA and I'm in Moline IL so even seeing the plane is going to be tricky.  I like the advice of being ready to overhaul her and then manage the life of the engine myself.  The airframe has super low time and complete logs. 

Everyone is different but, for me, the most important thing is that it has been flown often and continuously.  Nothing kills an airplane like disuse.

[ElisiumNate]

I have a call with the seller tomorrow and will be asking him a few things.  Hopefully this conversation will give me some more good questions.  So far I've got:
- How often is it flown?
- Is it hangared or stored outside?

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, ElisiumNate said:

I have a call with the seller tomorrow and will be asking him a few things.  Hopefully this conversation will give me some more good questions.  So far I've got:
- How often is it flown?
- Is it hangared or stored outside?

If it's in California, there are lots of good shops where you could get a competent pre-buy.  Top Gun comes to mind.

[hammdo]

For sure a pre-buy…

~45 years since OH and why a new prop would be some of the questions. That engine, I’d be wondering about the cam/lifter/follower pitting and if all engine ADs compiled with. Pre buy becoming an annual from a shop I chose would be good…

Nice looking plane though…

-Don

[ElisiumNate]

1 minute ago, hammdo said:

For sure a a pre-buy…

~45 years since OH and why a new prop would be some of the questions. That engine, I’d be wondering about the cam/lifter/follower pitting and if all engine ADs compiled with. Pre buy becoming an annual would be good…

Nice looking plane though…

-Don

Good call on the "Why a new prop?" part - I added that to my list for tomorrow's call.  

Also added "Have all engine ADs been complied with?" 
My A&P IA pal has offered to do the pre-buy for me, but of course I have to get us out to the airplane so before I burn up a few thousand in airfare I thought I'd ask the questions first! 

[hammdo]

I see the tanks resealed too - ask who did it and then have them filled to be sure no leaks.

Have a serious look for corrosion too. Pre-buy turned into an annual should look for that.  Ask if SB 208 has been completed along with all the original insulation removed/replaced.

Check prop for B hub also so no recurring AD inspection every 100 hours.

https://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SBM20-208B.pdf

 

-Don

[ElisiumNate]

Added to the list! 

Just heard from a buddy too that I can't finance this plane since the engine is so old.  As a new buyer I didn't know there was such a limitation.  Are you all familiar with this too? I've reached out for an insurance quote, but have not started the financing conversation yet.  I have great credit though so I assumed it would be pretty much like any other loan.  

Greatly appreciate the input from everyone!

[hammdo]

Check with AOPA on financing. I’ve not heard that one before but could be some do that…

-Don

[good2eat]

Some financing entities require fewer than 20 years since overhaul.  That said, it is also possible to finance an overhaul as part of the purchase as well.

[ElisiumNate]

1 minute ago, good2eat said:

Some financing entities require fewer than 20 years since overhaul.  That said, it is also possible to finance an overhaul as part of the purchase as well.

Hey I hadn't considered that... Great idea! 

[LANCECASPER]

47 minutes ago, hammdo said:

~45 years since OH and why a new prop would be some of the questions.

Looks like 0 since overhaul on the prop, not a new prop

[Bartman]

When I bought my J in 2007, it was priced near the top of the market, and it was well maintained and a well equipped Mooney for that time. The engine was good and I knew one fuel tank leaked which I fixed soon after purchase. 

If you want to fly, look for something that is well maintained and well equipped that flies often. You get what you pay for.  
 

I’m not saying this is not a good plane, but if the engine is that far beyond TBO then it will need attention, and that takes more time than you imagine.  If you want to fly, you may need to keep looking. If you want to rebuild and know exactly what you have, this one looks good to me.

[gmonnig]

2 hours ago, ElisiumNate said:

Here she is - https://shorturl.at/otBQ4

What do you all think?? 

That looks like a nice plane. Definitely plan on the engine overhaul though. My hangar neighbor has a 201 that he purchased at TBO. He planned for it financially but what wasn't planned was the more than one year of downtime! I think he's in for $45-50k (basically same engine as our E models) and it's still not done!!! Imagine renting Cessna 150/172 for a year to keep current and still having all your other airplane bills. 

[MikeOH]

3 hours ago, ElisiumNate said:

Here she is - https://shorturl.at/otBQ4

What do you all think?? 

I have seen this plane back in April when I went to look at another Mooney that Foothill (Curtis Cable) has for sale (for another MS poster).  I'm afraid I only walked by it so I can't give you any details other than it's been sitting outside for sale since then.

My concern with the zero time since OH prop would be an undocumented prop strike (which requires an engine inspection that may not have been done).  As others have said, you also need to find out if it is subject to the 100 hour periodic eddy current inspection AD.

Getting your IFR cert will help significantly with your insurance premium, but I'm not so sure about Commercial and CFI.  If you haven't already, you should contact our resident insurance broker that many of us here use: @Parker_Woodruff

[LANCECASPER]

2 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I have seen this plane back in April when I went to look at another Mooney that Foothill (Curtis Cable) has for sale (for another MS poster).  I'm afraid I only walked by it so I can't give you any details other than it's been sitting outside for sale since then.

My concern with the zero time prop would be an undocumented prop strike (which requires an engine inspection that may not have been done).  As others have said, you also need to find out if it is subject to the 100 hour periodic eddy current inspection AD.

The prop is zero since overhaul, not a zero time prop.

[MikeOH]

3 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

The prop is zero since overhaul, not a zero time prop.

Thanks. Fixed

[ElisiumNate]

Greatly appreciate all of this.  Certainly has me considering the overhaul downtime, which I had not considered.  Starting to seem more like I should keep looking for a plane that has been flying regularly, not one that has been sitting.  These are all great points.