What’s the Best Option for Upgrading Cabin Insulation?

[Denis Mexted]

That aircraft with the disintegrated closed cell insulation was sold. (Just the nightmare remains :)

Yes the stuff I’ve just pulled out of the Mooney M20F was in perfect nick.

It would nice to be able give brand/type names for the learning process but I’m sorry I don’t have that info.

[RoundTwo]

It looks like I do have some mouse induced corrosion I need to clean up, but not much.

[LANCECASPER]

On 8/20/2023 at 6:23 PM, RoundTwo said:

It looks like I do have some mouse induced corrosion I need to clean up, but not much.

Make sure before you close this chapter that there is no corrosion on anything structural. Since there's no way of knowing exactly when this happened this is something that's covered by your insurance.

[RoundTwo]

11 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Make sure before you close this chapter that there is no corrosion on anything structural. Since there's no way of knowing exactly when this happened (wink, wink) this is something that's covered by your insurance.

My new boroscope has been coming in handy and so far, nothing found. 

[Pinecone]

On 8/19/2023 at 3:47 PM, Fly Boomer said:

Is there some reason or requirement for gluing the insulation to the outer skin?  Why not just cut it a tiny bit big, and press it into place?  It can't get away once the cabin walls are in place.

Pressing in place or velcro makes it easier to remove to replace to get to things.

But gluing it in place helps reduce vibrations and drumming of the skin.

[Fly Boomer]

42 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

But gluing it in place helps reduce vibrations and drumming of the skin.

I wondered about that after I asked the question.  Makes sense.  Thanks.

[RoundTwo]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

Pressing in place or velcro makes it easier to remove to replace to get to things.

But gluing it in place helps reduce vibrations and drumming of the skin.

Specific instruction from Soundex is to NOT glue due to the potential fo trapping moisture but there are valid reasons to gluing for panel harmonics reasons. My plane had both glued in fiberglass and PSA attached mylar backed open cell foam. The aluminum behind both look fine after 35 years.

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, RoundTwo said:

My new boroscope has been coming in handy and so far, nothing found. 

That's good. Whenever I think of mouse urine it reminds me of this post:

 

[RoundTwo]

11 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

That's good. Whenever I think of mouse urine it reminds me of this post:

 

Thanks for that! I did a Google search for mouse urine and mainly got discussions of the best relief measure. 

[philiplane]

On 8/19/2023 at 4:08 PM, RoundTwo said:

Do you have a brand name and product that isn’t any good?

no matter who sells this type of foam, it's made to the same specs by only 3 or 4 US manufacturers. You would treat them as the same product. Chemically they are the same.

This type of foam is also used as carpet backing, and I'm seeing that crumble too after 7-10 years. SCS Interiors lightweight carpets use this foam and it's degrading/crumbling by the ten year mark. 

[RoundTwo]

Well, the big box of Soundex arrived and it’s heavier than I expected. The shipment, including the box, weighed just over 35 pounds. The backing foil is very thick and the foam is dense. It will be interesting to see how much the cut pieces weigh. It’s surely a lot heavier than the foam and fiberglass I pulled out. 
 

For those of you that have gone the soundex route before, what did you do for W&B? I discarded the existing insulation as soon as it came out, thinking it was going to be like for like. I’m just guessing, but installing Soundex will probably cost 10-15 pounds in UL. Does anyone have any numbers to support or disprove that?

Thanks,

Chuck

[Mooney-Shiner]

Since I'm going through insulation upgrade/SB208B compliance, I will add my $0.02.

Initially I was thinking to improvise and find thickest foam to fit behind plastics for better sound insulation.

But then settled on making an actual legal repair with using Mooney prescribed materials as per SB208B. Especially, if I was to expect my A&P to sign off the SB208B compliance (which adds the resell value). 

Initially, I reached out to Kerrville to procure 170018-901 (LH) and 170018-902 (RH). They told me to reach out to any authorized MSC, so MSC can order the kit from Kerrville and sell to me. I reached out to Lasar (MSC) and got quoted $553.85 each. Somewhat steep in the price in comparison to just getting a sheet of "good stuff" on the Ebay and "make do." But I guess I have to comply with the SB, so B.O.A.Thousand.

For the sake of comparison, SoundEx kits is even more expensive than Mooney kit at $1,221.00.

https://soundexproducts.com/products/pp-44e

I did noticed that SoundEx kit includes the insulation for hat shelf, not sure if Mooney kit has it. Can anyone speak on it?

---------------------

Also unrelated to insulation, but relevant to SB208B. I couldn't find the photo of tension bolt from fitting/spar attach point. So I followed the instructions and found the bolt myself. Next up, I will cut the safety wire and remove the bolt to pass the pencil size magnet to check/remove any rust flakes (hopefully none).

 

Sorry for the info fire hose, and the thread hi-jack.

 

[LANCECASPER]

2 minutes ago, ukrsindicat@yahoo.com said:

Since I'm going through insulation upgrade/SB208B compliance, I will add my $0.02.

Initially I was thinking to improvise and find thickest foam to fit behind plastics for better sound insulation.

But then settled on making an actual legal repair with using Mooney prescribed materials as per SB208B. Especially, if I was to expect my A&P to sign off the SB208B compliance (which adds the resell value). 

Initially, I reached out to Kerrville to procure 170018-901 (LH) and 170018-902 (RH). They told me to reach out to any authorized MSC, so MSC can order the kit from Kerrville and sell to me. I reached out to Lasar (MSC) and got quoted $553.85 each. Somewhat steep in the price in comparison to just getting a sheet of "good stuff" on the Ebay and "make do." But I guess I have to comply with the SB, so B.O.A.Thousand.

For the sake of comparison, SoundEx kits is even more expensive than Mooney kit at $1,221.00.

https://soundexproducts.com/products/pp-44e

I did noticed that SoundEx kit includes the insulation for hat shelf, not sure if Mooney kit has it. Can anyone speak on it?

---------------------

Also unrelated to insulation, but relevant to SB208B. I couldn't find the photo of tension bolt from fitting/spar attach point. So I followed the instructions and found the bolt myself. Next up, I will cut the safety wire and remove the bolt to pass the pencil size magnet to check/remove any rust flakes (hopefully none).

 

Sorry for the info fire hose, and the thread hi-jack.

 

The SoundEx Kit if for the whole interior - the Mooney kit is just for two pieces. Better yet just order some full pieces of the SoundEx and cut it to fit. I did this on two airplanes.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/soundex7.php?clickkey=23792

[M20F-1968]

I used the SoundEx product throughout the cabin, including the roof.  Do not glue it in.  It is not necessary to do so.  You then have access to the skins for inspection later, running wires, or general maintenance.

John Breda

[PT20J]

I bought the Mooney material through OasisAero MSC in bulk in 2020. It cost me $475 for enough to do everything but the side panels which were already done on my1994 MSE. Mooney provided me with the burn cert to make my IA happy. It is half inch foam with metalized mylar on one side and self adhesive on the other side. It probably helps with the sound, but it really helps with the cabin temperature.

Skip

[Fly Boomer]

22 hours ago, ukrsindicat@yahoo.com said:

For the sake of comparison, SoundEx kits is even more expensive than Mooney kit at $1,221.00.

I would set aside the cost calculations until you determine who can ship.  Aircraft Spruce always says "in stock" or "shipping Monday" but I just waited 13 months for oil filters.  With Mooney, on the other hand, you may wait a year or two after you order.  These days, "who can deliver" has become more important than "how much".

[PT20J]

The material I ordered from Oasis came immediately because Oasis had a roll of it in stock. I've also heard that Aero Comfort stocks the material, but I haven't verified that personally.

[DCarlton]

On 8/18/2023 at 4:46 PM, LANCECASPER said:

Calling them manufacturing techniques might be a stretch, but for sure the materials are better for sure. The fiberglass panels are many times thicker and then the ladies in the Mooney upholstery shop would cover them with Ultraleather (fancy name for really durable vinyl) or earlier on they used Eurostretch (a fancy name name for fairly durable cloth).

For sure they were a few pounds heavier, but worth every ounce. Taking out the interior is so much easier on the long body Mooneys manufactured after 1994 and the Js and Ks after they also went to the fiberglass panels. Richard Collins in Flying Magazine did a review on a Mooney soon after the interior upgrades and it seemed that was the thing with which he was most impressed.

Mooney made kits that they sold to upgrade older Js, Ks and Ms to the new interiors. (All Ovations have the fiberglass side panels and headliners)

Curious.  How are the newer panels attached ?  Never seen a newer plane up close but they seemed to have concealed the fasteners.  

[LANCECASPER]

12 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Curious.  How are the newer panels attached ?  Never seen a newer plane up close but they seemed to have concealed the fasteners.  

Very few screws. They mostly snap into place with clips behind them. More like the way automotive panels snap into place.

[philiplane]

On 10/25/2023 at 8:26 PM, ukrsindicat@yahoo.com said:

Since I'm going through insulation upgrade/SB208B compliance, I will add my $0.02.

Initially I was thinking to improvise and find thickest foam to fit behind plastics for better sound insulation.

But then settled on making an actual legal repair with using Mooney prescribed materials as per SB208B. Especially, if I was to expect my A&P to sign off the SB208B compliance (which adds the resell value). 

Initially, I reached out to Kerrville to procure 170018-901 (LH) and 170018-902 (RH). They told me to reach out to any authorized MSC, so MSC can order the kit from Kerrville and sell to me. I reached out to Lasar (MSC) and got quoted $553.85 each. Somewhat steep in the price in comparison to just getting a sheet of "good stuff" on the Ebay and "make do." But I guess I have to comply with the SB, so B.O.A.Thousand.

For the sake of comparison, SoundEx kits is even more expensive than Mooney kit at $1,221.00.

https://soundexproducts.com/products/pp-44e

I did noticed that SoundEx kit includes the insulation for hat shelf, not sure if Mooney kit has it. Can anyone speak on it?

---------------------

Also unrelated to insulation, but relevant to SB208B. I couldn't find the photo of tension bolt from fitting/spar attach point. So I followed the instructions and found the bolt myself. Next up, I will cut the safety wire and remove the bolt to pass the pencil size magnet to check/remove any rust flakes (hopefully none).

 

Sorry for the info fire hose, and the thread hi-jack.

 

I would avoid the closed cell foam insulation. It is heavy, will also retain water, and does not last as long as fiberglass. It does not reduce noise as much as a good ANR headset either.

You are much better off using wrapped fiberglass insulation. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by philiplane

[tmo]

I understood that closed cell foam is used exactly because it does not soak up / retain water.