IFR Pattern work

[redbaron1982]

Hey, how do you handle whenever you want to go out to practice approaches to keep IR currency? I want to have a plan whenever the conditions are right to go and practice some approaches and keep currency.

What I´d do is file a flight from my home airport, back to my home airport, via the IAF for the approach in use at the moment. And then keep going missed for a couple of times to practice/log a couple of approaches.

Is this practice something that ATC is OK with? How do you guys keep the currency (both from a legal point of view and practice/proficiency point of view). 

[RobertGary1]

If it’s vfr I’ll just ask ground for flight following. If it’s ifr I file to the map and back. 

[EricJ]

34 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

Hey, how do you handle whenever you want to go out to practice approaches to keep IR currency? I want to have a plan whenever the conditions are right to go and practice some approaches and keep currency.

What I´d do is file a flight from my home airport, back to my home airport, via the IAF for the approach in use at the moment. And then keep going missed for a couple of times to practice/log a couple of approaches.

Is this practice something that ATC is OK with? How do you guys keep the currency (both from a legal point of view and practice/proficiency point of view). 

This only counts for currency if it is IFR to minimums, but this does happen frequently.

For currency a safety pilot and a couple hours of approaches ending at a hundred-dollar-hamburger site usually works.  

For practice, flying approaches in VFR goes a long way to keeping current on all the buttonology and equipment configuration, flying, etc.

Edited June 18, 2023 by EricJ

[redbaron1982]

I understand that if you are in actual IMC after the FAF, then it counts for currency. To minimums is only if you use a vision limiting device and a safety pilot 

[redbaron1982]

16 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

It says "below VFR minimums".  That would be 1,000 ft ceiling is all that is required...not in IMC to the GPS RNAV minimum ceiling that might only be 200 ft AGL.

https://pilot-protection-services.aopa.org/news/2015/september/30/faa-clarifies-logging-of-instrument-approach-procedures

 

Here it says that FAA requires, if in actual IMC, the flight to transition from IMC to VMC during the final approach segment. 

That would be at any point from the FAF to the DA/MDA. 

Edited June 18, 2023 by redbaron1982

[toto]

51 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

I guess a lot of people use a simulator to stay current.  

I started renting a Redbird at a local flight school during the early Covid days, and I’ve found that it’s actually fantastic for currency.

[DonMuncy]

It is not even necessary to file a flight plan. Around the DFW area I just contact the approach control sector I happen to be in, and request a practice approach to whatever airport I desire. They don't mind at all. Just tell them which approach you want to use, whether you want to land, do a missed or whatever. 

[donkaye]

We are lucky in the Bay Area.  Most summer days the Monterey Bay is overcast until about 11:00; if there's a 20°F inversion, then maybe longer.  Those inversions are amazing.  You sweat at 3,000 feet and chill at sea level on approach.  I'll get up early and file from San Jose to Salinas.  You can't file multiple airports, but with 4 airports all located within a few miles of each other and the same controller working all of them, it is easy to run multiple approaches to all of the airports by flying the missed approach and asking for an approach to another nearby airport.  On the missed the controller will clear me to another airport where I'll do the same thing.  I plan to ping pong off of various airports.  There are a variety of approaches from which to choose, and I can usually do at least 6 approaches in less than 2 hours.  Going into Monterey on the ILS often I'll be the only plane early in the morning when the airport is below minimums with other Commercial planes holding waiting for the minimums to rise.

It doesn't hurt that for the moment Marina (KOAR) has the cheapest fuel around, so I plan an approach there as the last approach of the day.  Getting out let's me practice Obstacle Departure Procedures and Void Time Clearances.

[hammdo]

While @DonMuncy is quite correct this is what I did yesterday - filed a full route with remarks letting  ATC know what I was doing (TRNG MULT APCH KACT).

My clearance limit was JPOOL6.ACT DIRECT KACT. Once I had Waco approach, I negotiated with them 3 approaches all with a miss then back to Mesquite (KHQZ). Waco was awesome and worked with me so I could do the approach’s (500/3 - first time that low for me!) After I was done Waco gave me my new clearance CQY YEAGR4 arrival. Now that was a great workout! The track is wobbly due to deviations for traffic et.al but, when we get IFR here it’s time to get some work. Mesquite gave me my 4th IFR approach of the day. Very busy but worth the training. I treated it as 3 tries to my destination and then a diversion to my alternate.

Lots of button pushing - All with no autopilot… fun!  I don’t shy away from SIDs or STARs- great practice! IFR around DFW, the computer spits the clearance out with them.

-Don

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

We are lucky in the Bay Area.  Most summer days the Monterey Bay is overcast until about 11:00; if there's a 20°F inversion, then maybe longer.  Those inversions are amazing.  You sweat at 3,000 feet and chill at sea level on approach.  I'll get up early and file from San Jose to Salinas.  You can't file multiple airports, but with 4 airports all located within a few miles of each other and the same controller working all of them, it is easy to run multiple approaches to all of the airports by flying the missed approach and asking for an approach to another nearby airport.  On the missed the controller will clear me to another airport where I'll do the same thing.  I plan to ping pong off of various airports.  There are a variety of approaches from which to choose, and I can usually do at least 6 approaches in less than 2 hours.  Going into Monterey on the ILS often I'll be the only plane early in the morning when the airport is below minimums with other Commercial planes holding waiting for the minimums to rise.

It doesn't hurt that for the moment Marina (KOAR) has the cheapest fuel around, so I plan an approach there as the last approach of the day.  Getting out let's me practice Obstacle Departure Procedures and Void Time Clearances.

I just did the the VOR-A to Watsonville last week. I didn’t break out till minimums (which are kind of high). I don’t get real ones that often any more. I still get a thrill breaking out and there’s the runway, right over there where it is supposed to be.

My plan was to go to Marina for fuel on departure, but my plans changed and I had another meeting in San Diego and was racing some folks who were flying the airlines to John Wayne and driving to San Diego, so I didn’t have time for the fuel stop and paid $1.25 more at Watsonville.

[N201MKTurbo]

Getting practice approaches with ATC around here isn’t done very often. The controllers usually tell you they are too busy. They expect you to go outside the class B and do them yourself at one of the stacks.

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

FALSE - It does not say "IFR to minimums"

It just says Fly "Six instrument approaches"

• 61.57(c) now states:

(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, a person may act as pilot in command under IFR or weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR only if:

(1) Use of an airplane, powered-lift, helicopter or airship for maintaining instrument experience. Within the six calendar months preceding the month of the flight, that person performed and logged at least the following tasks and iterations in an airplane, powered-lift, helicopter, or airship, as appropriate, for the instrument rating privileges to be maintained in actual weather conditions, or under simulated conditions using a view-limiting device that involves having performed the following—

(i) Six instrument approaches.

(ii) Holding procedures and tasks.

(iii) Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigational electronic systems.

(2) Use of a full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device for maintaining instrument experience. A pilot may accomplish the requirements in paragraph (c)(1) of this section in a full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device provided the device represents the category of aircraft for the instrument rating privileges to be maintained and the pilot performs the tasks and iterations in simulated instrument conditions. A person may complete the instrument experience in any combination of an aircraft, full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device.

You can't just look at the reg. There's a long history of interpretations, some of which were ridiculous. The most current guidance is 2015's InFO, Logging Instrument Approach Procedures (IAP). Basically it comes down to

• crossing the FAF in actual.
• flying to MDA using a view limiting device, unless operational considerations require going missed early.
• flying to MDA in virtual actual if using an approved ground training device.

If you don't like that, I guess you can stick with the most recent Chief Counsel interpretation, which is worse

[midlifeflyer]

4 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

Hey, how do you handle whenever you want to go out to practice approaches to keep IR currency? I want to have a plan whenever the conditions are right to go and practice some approaches and keep currency.

What I´d do is file a flight from my home airport, back to my home airport, via the IAF for the approach in use at the moment. And then keep going missed for a couple of times to practice/log a couple of approaches.

Is this practice something that ATC is OK with? How do you guys keep the currency (both from a legal point of view and practice/proficiency point of view). 

"whenever the conditions are right" sounds like you want to do it on a good IFR day. I just did one of these two weeks ago. It was fun. 

It depends on whether you want multiple approaches to the same airport or are going to multiple airports. Single airport, I file a route from the airport to a fix and back to the airport. If it's multiple airports and I don't plan to land until my return , I file a round robin flight plan with a good route to the first airport and then list the airports.  If I plan to land anywhere, the next leg is a separate flight plan.

In all cases, I have been adding IFR TRNG to the remarks. 

And while that has worked for me through the years, it's never a bad idea to call the local TRACON or talks to a local CFII to see if there are locally-preferred ways..

[hubcap]

If I need practice or currency I typically fly a “round-robin” shooting 2 different approaches at 2 different local airports and the fly an approach back in to my airport and I’m done. I can do that in 45 minutes or so.

[N201MKTurbo]

29 minutes ago, hubcap said:

If I need practice or currency I typically fly a “round-robin” shooting 2 different approaches at 2 different local airports and the fly an approach back in to my airport and I’m done. I can do that in 45 minutes or so.

I’m kind of jealous. It usually takes two hours to do six approaches at the stack. If there is nobody there, or somebody is just practicing holds, which is rare, your safety pilot can vector you in for an express approach. Usually you are doing 3 or 4 laps around the hold after climbing to 6 or 7 thousand feet for an FAF of 3800.

[Mooneymite]

Wasn't there a regulation that said, "Log what you need, fly what you want?"

I'm sure I read that somewhere.   

 

 

[GeeBee]

I bought a Redbird TD2 sim, FAA approved, 10K all in with all the bells and whistles. I practice any time I want, no safety pilot required, I remain current and have fun practicing everywhere from Anchorage to Zimbabwe. I can simulate any weather including heavy icing. I love doing the LDA to KTVL in snow at dusk, especially if I go missed. Equally fun is the approach to VNKT, Katmandu, Nepal.

 

[Fly Boomer]

2 hours ago, hammdo said:

Lots of button pushing - All with no autopilot… fun!  I don’t shy away from SIDs or STARs- great practice! IFR around DFW, the computer spits the clearance out with them.

The menu bar at the bottom looks like ForeFlight, but I don't recognize the data on the screens.  What are you using?

[hubcap]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I’m kind of jealous. It usually takes two hours to do six approaches at the stack. If there is nobody there, or somebody is just practicing holds, which is rare, your safety pilot can vector you in for an express approach. Usually you are doing 3 or 4 laps around the hold after climbing to 6 or 7 thousand feet for an FAF of 3800.

I like to do it after a warm front passes over. Then you can do it in actual with a 400’ ceiling. 

[N201MKTurbo]

38 minutes ago, hubcap said:

I like to do it after a warm front passes over. Then you can do it in actual with a 400’ ceiling. 

Almost never happens around here, and when it does, you usually don’t want to be out flying. And besides, when it is actual IFR around here, the chance of getting a practice approach is damn near zero. I once tried to get a clearance from Tucson to KCHD. I waited over an hour. They kept saying Phoenix is not accepting IFR arrivals. I finally scud ran back home in 4 miles vis.

[hammdo]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

The menu bar at the bottom looks like ForeFlight, but I don't recognize the data on the screens.  What are you using?

ForeFlight -- I took a screen shot of the 'Flight' from my track log/Log Book and the Screen Shot from 'Flights'.  I just trimmed it up a bit...

-Don

[McMooney]

Here in houston, starting early spring to about mid summer, you can get IFR pretty much every morning till about 9/10 ish

 

[PeteMc]

8 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

To minimums is only if you use a vision limiting device and a safety pilot 

Well....  Yes and no.  If you're at a busy Non-Towered airport and you need to break off for traffic or you're at a Towered airport and they tell you to break off, you can still count it.  But in general, yes, the FAA wants you to go to minimums whenever possible when doing approaches under the hood. 

They also "suggest" you do the Missed for practice, but it is not required to log the Approach.

[toto]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

I bought a Redbird TD2 sim, FAA approved, 10K all in with all the bells and whistles. I practice any time I want, no safety pilot required, I remain current and have fun practicing everywhere from Anchorage to Zimbabwe. I can simulate any weather including heavy icing. I love doing the LDA to KTVL in snow at dusk, especially if I go missed. Equally fun is the approach to VNKT, Katmandu, Nepal.

 

Yep, exactly. I fly in sim weather that I would never want to fly in for real, and it’s definitely good experience. 

[jaylw314]

I'm pretty sure they need a different departure and destination if you're going to file IFR.  If I'm just going up for approaches, I put something to that effect in the remarks.  There are some approaches that ATC doesn't allow for repeated approaches, like Newport, OR.  It's on the coast, non-towered, and great for getting bad weather, but I assume they don't allow it because of the Coast Guard station.  I've never found it written down anywhere, but I've been told that by ATC a couple times when I've tried.

The few BATD's I've seen have FAA letters requiring approaches to minimums if used for IFR currency.