I need another plane.....

[Glen Davis]

I have a 1984 M20J. I've owned it for about two years. It's the perfect plane for me. I've been flying for 46 years and have owned a handful of makes and models but this one pushes all my buttons. I've done a lot of research in updating my steam gauges to a glass panel. I've gotten quotes from 3 reputable shots and I'm about to pull the trigger. But, before I write the check I thought I would see if there's anyone who currently owns  a J model that has upgraded their panel to Garman Glass and a GFC 500 autopilot, has good paint, equally good interior and is thinking about selling. If I could find the aircraft I'm about to build from my current aircraft I would be very tempted to buy it and sell my airplane. I don't want anything but a J model and it has to have the back seats which fold down as my doggy travels with me most of the time. If you've got one and are contemplating letting it go please contact me. I don't need to sell my airplane first. I can buy yours and deal with the sale of mine afterwards. 

[Glen Davis]

Panel will be around 70k. Everything new. No more vacuum. 

[1980Mooney]

I thought with the new auto pilot and all the labor to pull the interior, pull all the old wiring out and new wiring to antennas etc. that it would be more. Thanks. 

[glbtrottr]

Panel will be around 70k. Everything new. No more vacuum. 

Glen,

Can you share with us what you’re getting for $70k? I know Garmin tends to do a bit of price fixing with their dealers most of the time, but I’m curious as to what items you’re installing and what the services are


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[ArtVandelay]

Anyone who has upgraded their plane to that extent is not likely to be selling in the near future.

$70k sounds like a good price to me for a completely new panel.

[chriscalandro]

A g3x will probably be less than 70k…

[PT20J]

I installed a G3X, G5, PMA 450B, GTN 650Xi, GNC 255A, GFC 500, GTX 345 a year and a half ago for about 80K in an M20J.

[0TreeLemur]

3 hours ago, Glen Davis said:

Panel will be around 70k. Everything new. No more vacuum. 

Will it go faster? 

Given what J's are selling for, you can get a lot more plane for $70k.  As you originally said, one that someone else has already put a bunch of AMUs in to add glass.

[Canadian Gal]

Why not go for a true upgrade

 

[Schllc]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

I installed a G3X, G5, PMA 450B, GTN 650Xi, GNC 255A, GFC 500, GTX 345 a year and a half ago for about 80K in an M20J.

A year and a half ago is a lifetime…

everything has ballooned like crazy. 
I do believe it will correct to an extent.

the cost of the panel spec’d may not change as much. 
it’s all of the “well while you have it torn open”….

that’s what really adds up!  In for a penny, in for a pound. 

[1980Mooney]

11 minutes ago, Schllc said:

A year and a half ago is a lifetime…

everything has ballooned like crazy. 
I do believe it will correct to an extent.

the cost of the panel spec’d may not change as much. 
it’s all of the “well while you have it torn open”….

that’s what really adds up!  In for a penny, in for a pound. 

True,  On one of the other aviation forums there were comments that Garmin bumped prices twice in 2022.  They said Garmin typically raises prices in Q1, but the price increase in June caught the dealers totally by surprise. They said the GPS 175 for example went from $4295 at dealers to $4895 during 2022, ~14% more.  And there is an expectation that Garmin will raise prices again this quarter.

Also shops have raised hourly rates.  Per AINonline the Aircraft Electronics Association’s 2022 Rate and Labor Survey in December showed 8% increase on average.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2022-12-01/aea-survey-shows-optimism-increased-cost-business

So @PT20J 's avionics upgrade today would probably be closer to $90K.

[glbtrottr]

I installed a G3X, G5, PMA 450B, GTN 650Xi, GNC 255A, GFC 500, GTX 345 a year and a half ago for about 80K in an M20J.

So let me see how close or far I am

G3x 11.5 depending (I gave you large landscape single)
G5 2.5
PMA450 3.5
GTn650 13.5
Gnc255 4.5
GFC500 8.5
Gtx345 6

Total 50 AMU. 10% discount? 45
Labor 35?

Curious


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[PT20J]

11 minutes ago, glbtrottr said:

So let me see how close or far I am

G3x 11.5 depending (I gave you large landscape single)
G5 2.5
PMA450 3.5
GTn650 13.5
Gnc255 4.5
GFC500 8.5
Gtx345 6

Total 50 AMU. 10% discount? 45
Labor 35?

Curious


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Pretty close.

Labor was 286 hours @ $110/hr = $31,460

Garmin doesn't supply a lot of common materials needed for installation, so there was a itemized materials charge of $2,497

The avionics was $47,817

The G3X included 4 cyl EIS. GFC 500 did NOT include yaw damper. I also had CiES fuel transmitters installed.

The labor was a little reduced because I supplied the airplane with the interior panels removed and I reinstalled them.

Skip

[ArtVandelay]

Will it go faster? 
Given what J's are selling for, you can get a lot more plane for $70k.  As you originally said, one that someone else has already put a bunch of AMUs in to add glass.

There are no Js on controller with glass, prices peak at $225k, most Ovations are +$300k.

Our planes aren’t necessities, they’re a luxury item, and if you want a luxurious experience of a nice panel, I say go for it.

[Pinecone]

12 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Anyone who has upgraded their plane to that extent is not likely to be selling in the near future.

$70k sounds like a good price to me for a completely new panel.

My thoughts also.

I got several quotes in the low to mid 50 range.  That was for 10" G3X, EIS, GFC-500 (3 axis)

And I already have a 650Xi, G-5 and GTX-345.  Those 3 items are around 22 just for them, not including install.

[glbtrottr]

Pretty close.
Labor was 286 hours @ $110/hr = $31,460
Garmin doesn't supply a lot of common materials needed for installation, so there was a itemized materials charge of $2,497
The avionics was $47,817
The G3X included 4 cyl EIS. GFC 500 did NOT include yaw damper. I also had CiES fuel transmitters installed.
The labor was a little reduced because I supplied the airplane with the interior panels removed and I reinstalled them.
Skip

And that is what gets me. 286 hours!!!

I have 4-5 friends who are IAs and the cost of avionics installs continues to boggle the mind. And I came from the tech industry!

If I could run an owner assisted course for self install of avionics with IA sign off I would

The cost of Garmin avionics installs is nothing to write home about, either. Moreover, since the installs are predominantly fresh, the tedium of having to deal with old wiring is minimized or eliminated since you Can bench check the entire install with ease along with your production harness.

Madness. 25/30k a plane plus the profit of the hardware But we keep feeding the beast…


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[PT20J]

31 minutes ago, glbtrottr said:

And that is what gets me. 286 hours!!!

I have 4-5 friends who are IAs and the cost of avionics installs continues to boggle the mind. And I came from the tech industry!

If I could run an owner assisted course for self install of avionics with IA sign off I would

The cost of Garmin avionics installs is nothing to write home about, either. Moreover, since the installs are predominantly fresh, the tedium of having to deal with old wiring is minimized or eliminated since you Can bench check the entire install with ease along with your production harness.

Madness. 25/30k a plane plus the profit of the hardware But we keep feeding the beast…


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I chose my shop carefully and had multiple quotes. This shop’s price was in the middle. But I know the installer well. He has an A&P/IA but has been doing avionics exclusively for 40+ years. I wrote a detailed specification for what I wanted including options and configuration and I visited the shop once a week to answer any questions and check. It actually too 7.5 calendar weeks to do the job. These things are not easy to work on, and you run into little surprises. 

[ttflyer]

5 hours ago, Evan said:

I can add some flavor to this. I just got my J model panel done. I installed a G3x with EIS, GFC500 with YD, GTN650xi, GMA345, GNC255, GTX335, GDL52r. I had them do a custom black panel along with changed out all the switches.

Total cost was just over 80k. 

Pics or it didn't happen!

[rbp]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

I chose my shop carefully and had multiple quotes. This shop’s price was in the middle. But I know the installer well. He has an A&P/IA but has been doing avionics exclusively for 40+ years. I wrote a detailed specification for what I wanted including options and configuration and I visited the shop once a week to answer any questions and check. It actually too 7.5 calendar weeks to do the job. These things are not easy to work on, and you run into little surprises. 

I should have done the same. I had a different experience than you

[1980Mooney]

6 minutes ago, rbp said:

I should have done the same. I had a different experience than you

More time? More surprises or More price?…or all three?!

[rbp]

Just now, 1980Mooney said:

More time? More surprises or More price?…or all three?!

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

I chose my shop carefully and had multiple quotes....But I know the installer well. He has an A&P/IA but has been doing avionics exclusively for 40+ years. I wrote a detailed specification for what I wanted including options and configuration and I visited the shop once a week to answer any questions and check

this ^^^

[rickseeman]

WOW, that's kinda modern looking.

[carusoam]

Classic make or buy decision…

1) Make existing plane into the forever-plane of the future… lots o work and risk

2) Buy somebody else’s forever-plane today, already complete… very few to select from

2.5) Wait in line for the factory to build that new Ovation UltraII with increase UL…! 

3) Buying a different plane and going through all the first year issues… usually comes with a no thank you type of response… 

4) Selecting a shop… put a priority on a shop that has done this 80amu job in a Mooney already…. I’ve known my Avioncis tech for 20+ years already… I know a shop that did two great jobs for one MSer… out on Long Island… find StevenL…

There is a an MSer with a shop on the west coast that has done two panels for other MSers… up in the PNW…

or find out who does DonKaye’s panel work… his panel is spectacular…

5) It looks like panels last about 20years before their technology becomes ancient… refreshing a panel in 2045… before becoming a UFO…

6) Nobody goes through this effort to sell the plane…  most Of the install costs get lost in translation…

7) To see one of the best prep exercises… find Skip’s writing about his panel developments early on… lots of manual finding and reading involved…

8) Panel building is both technical, and artistic…

9) If you are fortunate… you look forward to this project… selecting each box for a list of reasons…. Some of the best boxes out there, don’t have a big G on them…

10) if you are less fortunate… you still have a big stack of AMUs… and have to go with a big G panel… because it mostly works as expected… and integrates pretty well… and everybody else has one to answer questions…. 

11) If you go all in… leave a spot open for a future device… and don’t look back…

12) Be prepared for the day… everything gets cut out of the panel…leaving your bird grounded until everything goes back in… it looks horrible…

Of course… a Fiki Acclaim, with A/C, and a four blade MT… would make a great next plane too…  

PP thoughts only,

-a-

[carusoam]

Let’s invite the people I mentioned above… for their insights…

1) Greg @Baker Avionics

2) @StevenL757

3) @donkaye

4) Jeff at 39N Princeton, NJ

See if you can include a modernized E-Bus in your layout…  

Best regards,

-a-

[redbaron1982]

As long as we are talking about avionics upgrade "only" and moving to a turbo and/or FIKI Mooney is not a factor, how is it better to buy a new aircraft (with all it's uncertainties) rather than upgrading an airplane that you're already familiar with (in the sense of how well it's maintained)? You also get to have exactly the layout and stuff you want, how you want it. 

The only downside on upgrading is the time that it will be grounded.