Question for the Membership Here- Pre-buy Check List

[cliffy]

Seeing as how over the years we have seen so many requests for what constitutes a pre-buy inspection

and having seen numerous new owners surprised by what turned out to be problems after their purchase

due to no or poor pre-buy inspections-

Why don't we (many of us have very good maintenance histories on Mooneys), why don't we come up with 

a reasonable check list for a pre-buy inspection and make it a sticky on this website? 

I'm sure we could come up with a good comprehensive list that ANY A&P could do without special tools that

would cover most of what we have seen over the years here. 

 

We don't need to include travel boards as that problem is not a deal killer nor do we need to cover internal engine

inspections as most owners wouldn't want their engine torn into (but an educational triste would certainly be appropriate). 

 

The Beech boys have their Bonanza Service Clinic Inspection which is quite good and that has an extensive check list to 

which we might  not need to dig so deep in Mooneys, 

We would however want to include the reoccurring issues we all have seen as deal killers after purchase like wing spar corrosion

that can be mostly seen  if you know where to look, cabin tubing rust, fuel leaks, dents in the airframe, stabilizer play, etc

Don't need to go into gear over center torque as that isn't a deal killer and requires special tools that the average mechanic 

doesn't have but jacking the plane up and making sure the gear works and the nose wheel steering play is checked should

be done.  

Of course general condition is subjective to each IA at annual. 

I'm sure we have enough expertise on this site to come up with something that would be of great help to new or 

prospective Mooney owners. If we don't help those who are looking to buy then when we want/need to sell our 

airplanes there won't be any takers. 

Chime in- my shields are up  

 

[Steve0715]

Another checklist that would be most valuable to a prospective buyer would be one for a first look.  And maybe items to look for in the logbooks.  It’s awful easy to get lost in that nice paint job or those beautiful electronics.  What should you really look at?

[rickseeman]

Mooney does publish a list of things to do at annual/100 hr. That might be a good starting point. But I think the buyer would have to modify it  depending on how much the buyer wants to spend.

Mooneys list

https://themooneyflyer.com/pdf/Mooney100HourAnnualGuide.pdf

 

 

[47U]

Then there’s this from LASAR…

https://lasar.com/prebuy-check-list

[PT20J]

Here's some ideas from Kerry McIntyre:

https://www.knr-inc.com/shop-talk-articles.html?view=article&id=87&catid=25

https://www.knr-inc.com/shop-talk-articles.html?view=article&id=88&catid=25

https://www.knr-inc.com/images/downloads/PurchaseUsedMooney.pdf

Skip

[Yetti]

The Doc did one and I believe it is in the downloads section.

[DonMuncy]

I think the prebuy should be done in steps:

Close inspection for airframe corrosion. If found, reject and move one.

Engine. Compressions and borescope. If problems found see if seller will consider a difference of the cost of an overhaul in the price. If not move one.

Tank leaks. If found, see if seller will consider a difference of the cost of a tank reseal in the price. If not move one. 

At that point, I might consider having the A&P/AI do all the inspection required of an annual (but no do an annual). If the deal is consumated, fip it to an annual and you are set for a year. 

[redbaron1982]

38 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

I think the prebuy should be done in steps:

Close inspection for airframe corrosion. If found, reject and move one.

Engine. Compressions and borescope. If problems found see if seller will consider a difference of the cost of an overhaul in the price. If not move one.

Tank leaks. If found, see if seller will consider a difference of the cost of a tank reseal in the price. If not move one. 

At that point, I might consider having the A&P/AI do all the inspection required of an annual (but no do an annual). If the deal is consumated, fip it to an annual and you are set for a year. 

I agree that the best approach is to start with the big stuff, the one that would probably will make you walk out of the deal, down to the most trivial stuff and stop whenever a big airworthiness thing appear and asses before continuing with the inspection.

Also I agree on taking the annual inspection as a baseline, removing all the non inspection items, and then make the shop complete the annual inspection if the deal is completed.

One *big* thing in my experience is all the legal wording to put into the contract with the shop. As many of you know I had a terrible experience with my first buy and I did follow, on the phone, this things. I asked the shop to do all the inspection part of the annual inspection as the prebuy, so if the deal was completed then they would just complete the inspection without any possibility for big discrepancies. I talk all of this on the phone, no writing in any of the contracts (my bad!).

Then, after a nice prebuy, the annual inspection found one week after, corrosion in the wing spar. The shop did not take any responsibility (Flight Level Aviation is the shop and Chris LaPlante the maintenance director there, stay away of those guys). So, hopefully, I'm going to end up spending over 30k of unexpected repairs. I think if the contract with the shop stated that the prebuy was going to be performed using the annual inspection as template, and even better include the list of items to be inspected, for sure the outcome would have been different: either the corrosion would have been found during prebuy or they shop would have to take responsibility for the damage.

Also, in my case, the contract for the prebuy said that the shop was responsible up to the amount of the inspection itself, but nor more.

This is also something important, because if you have that clause, and they did a shitty inspection, at most you will get back the money of the inspection, but you will still have to take care of a huge repair bill.

 

[DonMuncy]

1 minute ago, redbaron1982 said:

I agree that the best approach is to start with the big stuff, the one that would probably will make you walk out of the deal, down to the most trivial stuff and stop whenever a big airworthiness thing appear and asses before continuing with the inspection.

Also I agree on taking the annual inspection as a baseline, removing all the non inspection items, and then make the shop complete the annual inspection if the deal is completed.

One *big* thing in my experience is all the legal wording to put into the contract with the shop. As many of you know I had a terrible experience with my first buy and I did follow, on the phone, this things. I asked the shop to do all the inspection part of the annual inspection as the prebuy, so if the deal was completed then they would just complete the inspection without any possibility for big discrepancies. I talk all of this on the phone, no writing in any of the contracts (my bad!).

Then, after a nice prebuy, the annual inspection found one week after, corrosion in the wing spar. The shop did not take any responsibility (Flight Level Aviation is the shop and Chris LaPlante the maintenance director there, stay away of those guys). So, hopefully, I'm going to end up spending over 30k of unexpected repairs. I think if the contract with the shop stated that the prebuy was going to be performed using the annual inspection as template, and even better include the list of items to be inspected, for sure the outcome would have been different: either the corrosion would have been found during prebuy or they shop would have to take responsibility for the damage.

Also, in my case, the contract for the prebuy said that the shop was responsible up to the amount of the inspection itself, but nor more.

This is also something important, because if you have that clause, and they did a shitty inspection, at most you will get back the money of the inspection, but you will still have to take care of a huge repair bill.

 

That is why I think you should have the shop do a corrosion inspection before anything else. If corrosion is present, at least, you don't have the expense of the rest of the inspection.

[Fly Boomer]

Apologies if this Mike Busch article has already been introduced into the conversation:

https://resources.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_eaa/EAA_2014-11_prebuy-dos-and-donts.pdf

[redbaron1982]

10 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

That is why I think you should have the shop do a corrosion inspection before anything else. If corrosion is present, at least, you don't have the expense of the rest of the inspection.

Yes, my point is, if the shop says "hey, there is not corrosion" and then 2 weeks later, after you closed the deal, they say now "hey, there was corrosion, sorry for not catching it sooner".

In my case, with the contract that I had, they would be liable up to the 2k cost of the inspection, but I would be left with a 15k (hopefully) bill and 1 year the aircraft without flying.

[DonMuncy]

I totally agree. But a "missed" item on a general examination, might be easier to explain than missed corrosion on a corrosion examination. Possibly no difference, but we are trying to do all we can to stack the deck in our favor. And remember any contract is only as good as the individual/entity entering into the contract and their ability/willingness to make it right, if it goes sideways.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Yetti said:

The Doc did one and I believe it is in the downloads section.

The one in down loads may be obsolete, I keep adding and changing it as time goes by, but it’s a pretty good starting point.

[carusoam]

Let’s invite @Mellow_Mooney to stop by this thread…

He is about to enter the PPI step…

Best regards,

-a-

[cliffy]

I've got more to add but I'll be out of touch for a while

When I return I'll add more thoughts.