Are the hub caps required?

[EricJ]

Yeah, that tool doesn't belong anywhere near aircraft sheet metal or aluminum castings unless you're using it on an aircraft that you're scrapping for aluminum salvage.

Penetrating oil, screw grabbing compounds, slotting a round head, drilling off a head, or using a traditional screw extractor (e.g., ez-out) should all be preferred methods.  None of those will damage the structure of what you're trying to separate, or even mar the finish if you're careful.

[M20F]

27 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Back in my motorcycle days, I had a device with a spring-loaded ramp inside that accomplished the same thing by striking it with a hammer.  This new-fangled gizmo appears to be much faster.

https://a.co/d/8tY2frq

These are good as well but I tend to hit my hand with the hammer as opposed to the driver. 
 

[GeeBee]

12 hours ago, EricJ said:

Yeah, that tool doesn't belong anywhere near aircraft sheet metal or aluminum castings unless you're using it on an aircraft that you're scrapping for aluminum salvage.

Penetrating oil, screw grabbing compounds, slotting a round head, drilling off a head, or using a traditional screw extractor (e.g., ez-out) should all be preferred methods.  None of those will damage the structure of what you're trying to separate, or even mar the finish if you're careful.

Baloney. Limit the air pressure on the hammer and it works fine. If you read my post you would have noted I have opened dozens of inspection panels with zero damage to the metal or the anchor plates. I know of several IAs who use it as well. The video shows the hammer at the max, for auto chassis work. You just need to be prudent with it on aircraft panels. It beats having screw drivers slip and gashing the panel. Don't make a judgement until you have actually used the tool. I've seen more anchor plates buggered by a screw extractor than this tool that has a record of zero problems

[EricJ]

17 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Baloney. Limit the air pressure on the hammer and it works fine. If you read my post you would have noted I have opened dozens of inspection panels with zero damage to the metal or the anchor plates. I know of several IAs who use it as well. The video shows the hammer at the max, for auto chassis work. You just need to be prudent with it on aircraft panels. It beats having screw drivers slip and gashing the panel. Don't make a judgement until you have actually used the tool. I've seen more anchor plates buggered by a screw extractor than this tool that has a record of zero problems

There's zero reason to use an air hammer tool on aluminum and a large number of reasons not to.    You do you.

[GeeBee]

Does it strike you that it is sold by an aircraft tool supply?

[M20F]

18 hours ago, EricJ said:

Yeah, that tool doesn't belong anywhere near aircraft sheet metal or aluminum castings unless you're using it on an aircraft that you're scrapping for aluminum salvage.

It works perfectly as intended would echo @GeeBee here on this one. 

[GeeBee]

You do a lot more damage to the anchor plates trying to torque a screw out with an extractor or other methods. Those little rivets that hold the anchor plates shear real easily then you got a real problem because you can't get behind the panel to hold the anchor plate. A light burp on the screw loosens it right up. Those little rivets were made for tension but not shear, especially against a steel anchor plate.

[EricJ]

6 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Does it strike you that it is sold by an aircraft tool supply?

There are lots of big iron places where it is appropriate to use.    It'll definitely work on fasteners in aluminum, too, but so will a torch.

There are just many, many effective methods that will also work with far less risk to the equipment.

[GeeBee]

No a torch would not work. Neither does a nuclear device. This does work. Others have actually used it know this, those that have not remain skeptical. Why not try it?

 

[carusoam]

Let’s see if @DCarlton is around….  (Screw loosening discussion….)

And a bunch of ideas to watch out for considering collateral damage…

 

Best regards,

-a-

[DCarlton]

20 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Let’s see if @DCarlton is around….  (Screw loosening discussion….)

And a bunch of ideas to watch out for considering collateral damage…

 

Best regards,

-a-

Afraid I can't add to this one.   I've posted my own small screw challenge in a different thread! 

[larrynimmo]

As an owner assisted type of guy that I am, I keep a set of craftsman’s drill/extractor bits.

they turn backwards…you drill backwards, and I use a battery impact tool for max rpm…then I remove the bit and use the opposite end and stick it in the impact tool…again running backwards and it’ll pop that screw out like nothing!

[EricJ]

17 hours ago, GeeBee said:

No a torch would not work. Neither does a nuclear device. This does work. Others have actually used it know this, those that have not remain skeptical. Why not try it?

They definitely will remove the screw, if that's what you mean by "work".    The issue is how much damage it does in the process, particularly  metal fatigue that may not express itself immediately.

Even on heavy iron or steel parts for antiques or expensive or bespoke parts on race cars, it is better to remove stuck or high-torque fasteners with steady pressure than hammering.    Penetrating oil and a looong cheater bar are your friends.    On rusted parts heat helps, then let it cool and try again.   Impact wrenches are last resorts.

Impact wrenches are for optimizing (minimizing) the time required to move a fastener.    This is why they're common in retail repair shops where time is money.   If part integrity is a concern, they are to be avoided.   For parts that life cycle out and are replaced periodically (hub nuts, wheel studs and nuts), it's not a big deal. 

For sheet or cast aluminum with an extended life cycle running into many decades that has life safety concerns, then, no.   Hammer tools do not belong, especially when there are effective alternatives.

[GeeBee]

47 minutes ago, EricJ said:

They definitely will remove the screw, if that's what you mean by "work".    The issue is how much damage it does in the process, particularly  metal fatigue that may not express itself immediately.

Even on heavy iron or steel parts for antiques or expensive or bespoke parts on race cars, it is better to remove stuck or high-torque fasteners with steady pressure than hammering.    Penetrating oil and a looong cheater bar are your friends.    On rusted parts heat helps, then let it cool and try again.   Impact wrenches are last resorts.

Impact wrenches are for optimizing (minimizing) the time required to move a fastener.    This is why they're common in retail repair shops where time is money.   If part integrity is a concern, they are to be avoided.   For parts that life cycle out and are replaced periodically (hub nuts, wheel studs and nuts), it's not a big deal. 

For sheet or cast aluminum with an extended life cycle running into many decades that has life safety concerns, then, no.   Hammer tools do not belong, especially when there are effective alternatives.

In that is the case, we better stop using rivets. 

Also there is no comparison to impact wrenches. Impact wrenches hammer in a rotational direction. The only rotation in this tool is provided by your hand. There is only vertical blow from the bit. Just like a rivet driver.

 

[A64Pilot]

22 hours ago, GeeBee said:

You do a lot more damage to the anchor plates trying to torque a screw out with an extractor or other methods. Those little rivets that hold the anchor plates shear real easily then you got a real problem because you can't get behind the panel to hold the anchor plate. A light burp on the screw loosens it right up. Those little rivets were made for tension but not shear, especially against a steel anchor plate.

I don’t know about the tool, but rivets are only to be loaded in shear, a nut and screw or bolt can be tension, but never a rivet

[GeeBee]

But a rivet is compressed into position, with a hammer. The one that causes all that long term damage.

 

[A64Pilot]

35 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

But a rivet is compressed into position, with a hammer. The one that causes all that long term damage.

 

I don’t think his point is hammering on a rivet, but hammering on the airframe, you drive a rivet with a bucking bar, the bucking bar does the work. The airframe doesn’t receive any hammering if done properly, or most small rivets I squeeze, but I’m no sheet metal man, I bend wrenches.

Either way unless it’s excessive it’s not likely to do any harm, however the old smack with a hammer impact has no place on aircraft, I agree with that, reason is to get any real twisting force you really have to smack one, I mean so much that you fear for your hand and you have to pre load the thing by holding it with a twisting force. I can only assume the force from that is what he’s thinking about, where I assume what your talking about is a much, much gentler impact but at a much higher frequency as opposed to the one big hit from the hammer impact. And yes a rattle wrench can loosen fasteners easier than torque, but I don’t like using them on aircraft.

These types of fasteners are often on very thin metal, .020 or .025 or so and care should be used of course.

I’m just proud Mooney didn’t use PK screws or rivnuts.

Either way usually you only have to do this once, if you install new screws with anti-seize or corrosion preventative and don’t overtorque them there shouldn’t be a problem later.

[GeeBee]

 

20 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Either way unless it’s excessive it’s not likely to do any harm, however the old smack with a hammer impact has no place on aircraft, I agree with that, reason is to get any real twisting force you really have to smack one, I mean so much that you fear for your hand and you have to pre load the thing by holding it with a twisting force.

I get it now. I think you an EricJ think this thing operates like one of those hammer blow impact drivers. It does not. The air hammer only provides vertical vibration to the screw. There is no twisting force other than that delivered by your hand twisting the the tool. It is no different than applying an ordinary screw driver, twisting it by hand and applying hammer taps to the end of the handle.

[N201MKTurbo]

That air hammer screw device isn’t new. I have one that looks like it was made in the 50s. 
 

I haven’t found it very useful around the hangar. I just drill the heads off.

[A64Pilot]

48 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

 

I get it now. I think you an EricJ think this thing operates like one of those hammer blow impact drivers. It does not. The air hammer only provides vertical vibration to the screw. There is no twisting force other than that delivered by your hand twisting the the tool. It is no different than applying an ordinary screw driver, twisting it by hand and applying hammer taps to the end of the handle.

No I understand exactly what it does, it’s a rivet gun with a rivet set that holds a bit, so long as the pressure on the gun is kept low it probably won’t do any harm as I said

[EricJ]

56 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

 

I get it now. I think you an EricJ think this thing operates like one of those hammer blow impact drivers. It does not. The air hammer only provides vertical vibration to the screw. There is no twisting force other than that delivered by your hand twisting the the tool. It is no different than applying an ordinary screw driver, twisting it by hand and applying hammer taps to the end of the handle.

I know how it works.

A rivet gun is made to intentionally and significantly deform hard metal when it strikes it.   If you miss the rivet even a little bit and hit aluminum being riveted instead, you probably have a repair to do.   It'll deform aluminum way more than it'll deform a rivet.   A rivet also has a buck bar or something substantial behind it to stabilize the work.    This proposed hammer tool does not.

Even when setting small or soft (e.g., aluminum) rivets, I prefer a squeezer if access allows.   Manual or pneumatic squeezers are a good idea for regular rivets for places that they fit, but sometimes you're stuck with a rivet gun and a buck bar.   They're to smash rivets stabilized with the buck bar, though, not aluminum.

Everybody has their risk tolerance level, and I'm sure plenty of people use these things on aluminum structure on light aircraft and save time doing so, especially if they're charging time to work on somebody else's airplane.   If I'm trying to keep a decades-old aluminum flying machine that I fly in functional for even longer, and arbitrarily longer, and there are alternative methods to using an air hammer on it, I'm gonna lean heavily toward using the alternatives.

[M20F]

Did we ever figure out if hubcaps are required?