Gear actuator breaker popping

[flyboy0681]

22 minutes ago, EricJ said:

They're standard parts and the IPC and subsequent kits provide a number of options on replacement relays.   As has been pointed out here periodically, they're basically golf kart relays.   There's not anything special about them.

The assumption is that we have the technical wherewithal and time to construct such a device.  I can see the post crash report now, "Inflight fire caused by use of Chinese relays placed inline of landing gear circuit which shorted out and self ignited".

[N177MC]

24 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

The assumption is that we have the technical wherewithal and time to construct such a device.  I can see the post crash report now, "Inflight fire caused by use of Chinese relays placed inline of landing gear circuit which shorted out and self ignited".

That assumption is false.  Replacing both relays with EXACTLY the same part from exactly the same manufacturer  require only the ability to read a PN and manufacturer's name on the component. NOT rocket science.

BTW: These relays are from a German manufacturer, not chinese , but quite frankly, that's a moot point because that's what MOONEY chose.

[flyboy0681]

14 minutes ago, N177MC said:

That assumption is false.  Replacing both relays with EXACTLY the same part from exactly the same manufacturer  require only the ability to read a PN and manufacturer's name on the component. NOT rocket science.

BTW: These relays are from a German manufacturer, not chinese , but quite frankly, that's a moot point because that's what MOONEY chose.

Wouldn’t such a repair require an official signoff in the logbook for removal of the old unit and installation of the new? Would an A&P even sign his name to a home made device?

[Fly Boomer]

4 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

home made device?

I think the point @N177MC is making is that it is not "home made" -- it's where Mooney got them originally.  Mooney doesn't "manufacture" common parts like these.  They buy them from suppliers all over the world.

[EricJ]

31 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

The assumption is that we have the technical wherewithal and time to construct such a device.  I can see the post crash report now, "Inflight fire caused by use of Chinese relays placed inline of landing gear circuit which shorted out and self ignited".

The listed parts were standard part numbers from RBM or Cutler Hammer, now Eaton.   The old part numbers may no longer be sold directly by them, but sometimes finding a factory cross reference gets you to a new equivalent.

In this case the IPC even listed a retrofit kit to cover obsoleted relays, and that's where the Kissling relay part number came from.    So you can sub those relays per the IPC retrofit kit.

https://www.te.com/content/dam/te-com/documents/industrial-and-commercial-transportation/global/kissling-documents-data-sheets/Data_Sheets_Documents_Kissling/contractors/KI-Relay26-50A-ds-a4-K1166683-en-2012.pdf

There are a number of other legal paths to find replacement parts that are suitable for installation when the originals are no longer made, or lead times or cost are prohibitive.  
 

1 minute ago, flyboy0681 said:

Wouldn’t such a repair require an official signoff in the logbook for removal of the old unit and installation of the new? Would an A&P sign his name to a home made device?

Any maintenance should be accompanied by a logbook entry with a description of the maintenance.   "Owner Produced Parts" is a methodology recognized by the FAA with established procedures, and covers situations just like this where a part is no longer made, lead time is too long, or cost is otherwise prohibitive.   So, yes, A&Ps sign off installation of OPP parts all the time when properly done.    There are a number of ACs and other directives describing how to do this.   It is often not necessary to install old-design obsoleted parts at very high cost, especially when better parts are available at lower cost.

 

[N177MC]

13 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

Wouldn’t such a repair require an official signoff in the logbook for removal of the old unit and installation of the new? Would an A&P even sign his name to a home made device?

I AM an A&P/IA and I have zero problem using OEM parts.

But let's look at this from a slightly (barely) different angle:  The "Mooney" part is un-obtainable, and/or Mooney is now out of business and there are NO Mooney replacement relays to be found. 

Now what ? 

Game over, your '83 J is now worthless ? 

How is this situation any different from the "by the book" perspective ? 

Get my point ?

[Marauder]

I think the point [mention=8975]N177MC[/mention] is making is that it is not "home made" -- it's where Mooney got them originally.  Mooney doesn't "manufacture" common parts like these.  They buy them from suppliers all over the world.

I think you’re going to find that there is nothing magical with many of the electronic components in our planes. Many are off of the shelf parts. I have replaced several relays (ex. landing light, flap relays) with exact OEM replacement parts bought at an electronics supply house (Grainger’s, Newark Electronics, Mouser Electronics, etc.).


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[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I think you’re going to find that there is nothing magical with many of the electronic components in our planes. Many are off of the shelf parts.

My point exactly.

[flyboy0681]

All of the points here are well taken, but it's moot now since the relays are installed and the gear now retracts and extends 100% of the time, something it wasn't doing.

Since my partners and I collectively have six left thumbs, building one even from plans would not have been an option, and when I learned that we needed the relays I searched here on MS for a solution and nobody was volunteering to build one. Then it would have had to been installed, which I don't believe is that straightforward since the instructions for the one that we did purchase called for removing the passenger seat and drilling holes in the floor for the mounting bracket. In other words, it didn't seem to be a simple swap in and out of the two units.

[philip_g]

Idk man. I was already wondering about taking the actuator motor to a non approved shop. I just do what my mechanic lets me get away with. Lol

[carusoam]

There have been a number of relay failures this month…

From starters to battery selectors to gear systems… and flap systems too.

The maintenance manual for the LB calls out the individual part number for all relays… they have a page dedicated to the relays…

If fortunate…

1) You are good at sourcing parts….

2) Your mechanic is familiar with how deep in reparing these systems he is comfortable with…

It is a real pain when out of town and a relay goes bad…

Go MS!

Best regards,

-a-

[Rotorhead]

Soooo...was the problem fixed...?

[carusoam]

3 hours ago, Rotorhead said:

Soooo...was the problem fixed...?

@N177MC note for you….

-a-

[N177MC]

FU :  Indeed, problem fixed and plane is flying again.

In the end, there were two points of failure : 

- The actuator motor was grounding internally, repaired by competent electrical motor specialist, $200;

- One of the two actuator reversing solenoid relays was TU, replaced both relays, $500 .