T/O FLAP SETTING FOR LANDING ?

[Yetti]

27 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

No offense, it’s not particularly persuasive when someone uses an appeal to authority/credentials rather than making a good argument. It’s even less so when someone makes a third party appeal to someone else’s authority/credentials without making a good argument. I’m certain almost anyone here can touchdown at 90mph if needed. It’s not difficult to fly a plane onto the runway at 1.7 Vso, but it’s poor airmanship under most circumstances.

So the Mooney Caravan is teaching bad airmanship.   Got it.   There are many tricks in the pilot bag of tricks that can be pulled out.  Flying it on at 90 is just one of the.   Gusty crosswinds and one wheel landings are another.   We go through this everytime and the manual says "flaps as needed"   Some need them more than others.   I think everyone should be able to do a no flap, half flap, full flap, one wheel, two wheel, engine out landing at speeds from 90mph to 57 mph and still make the 2000 foot turn off and land on the centerline.

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Yetti

[Shadrach]

7 minutes ago, Yetti said:

So the Mooney Caravan is teaching bad airmanship.   Got it.

I won’t ring in on what the caravan does for formation arrivals as I have not been briefed on their SOP.  Operating under special circumstances sometimes requires some degree of compromise/flexibility and the acceptance of additional risk

I am saying that under normal circumstances the view that the flaps are only for special circumstances and that 1.6Vso is a perfectly reasonable touchdown speed is bad advice and bad airmanship. Yes I will hang my head on that. 

 

[GeeBee]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

That is true with a Cessna. I’m not sure about the Mooney.

I was doing an IFR training flight in a Cessna Cutlass RG back in 84. Well I actually had to get to KRAP for work and I didn’t have an instrument rating so I conned an instructor to go with me. I had read that you shouldn’t use flaps in a Cessna if iced because it will change the airflow over the tail and cause a tail stall. On the approach we picked up about 1 1/2 inches of clear ice. When we broke out the instructor went to put the flaps down and I insisted he doesn’t. He said we needed the lift because of the ice. I convinced him to wait till I was in the flare. I was going about 120 KTS because of the ice and was about two feet above the runway. We put the flaps down and I continued to decelerate. At about 90 KTS the nose slammed into the pavement. Luckily, we didn’t bend anything. The tail did stall.

That being said, I have landed the Mooney with a inch of rime with full flaps with no issue. I did the same thing approaching at high speed and decelerating over the runway. It landed normally.

Hmm, it is true for almost all aircraft. 

In any event, it is true for the Mooney, check out the limits on a FIKI Mooney.

Try this module

https://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/1_3_4_3.html

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

58 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Hmm, it is true for almost all aircraft. 

In any event, it is true for the Mooney, check out the limits on a FIKI Mooney.

Try this module

https://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/1_3_4_3.html

 

 

https://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SUPP0017H.pdf

It does say to not use more than take off flaps if you are iced up. 

[GeeBee]

9 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

https://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SUPP0017H.pdf

It does say to not use more than take off flaps if you are iced up. 

Yep! All aircraft are subject to tail plane stall when iced.

 

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

I won’t ring in on what the caravan does for formation arrivals as I have not been briefed on their SOP.  Operating under special circumstances sometimes requires some degree of compromise/flexibility and the acceptance of additional risk

I am saying that under normal circumstances the view that the flaps are only for special circumstances and that 1.6Vso is a perfectly reasonable touchdown speed is bad advice and bad airmanship. Yes I will hang my head on that. 

 

Define "Normal circumstances" 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

Yep! All aircraft are subject to tail plane stall when iced.

 

I haven't had more than a trace of ice on a Mooney since they changed the rules from known ice to forecast ice. When was that 95 or so? Before that I would routinely fly in any conditions that I could get out of. You get a lot of experience dealing with ice that people nowadays don't get. I wonder how the icing fatality rate has changed since the rule change?

 

FYI

The Groszer Decision 1993 put a nail in the debate about known icing.

year       # of GA fatal icing ancients

1982  19

1983  18

1984  17

1985  15

1986  13

1987  12

1988  10

1989  7

1990  14

1991  8

1992  18

1993  9

1994  6

1995  17

1996  11

1997  4

1998  7

1999  8

2000  6

 

 

2010  14

2011  15

2012  8

2013  7

2014  8

So, the rule change didn't do much...

Edited June 7, 2022 by N201MKTurbo

[Shadrach]

37 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Define "Normal circumstances" 

A lot to define there. It would be quicker and easier to define non-standard circumstances. Which I would define as any operation that necessitates a course of action contrary to FAR/AIM recommendations.

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I haven't had more than a trace of ice on a Mooney since they changed the rules from known ice to forecast ice. When was that 95 or so? Before that I would routinely fly in any conditions that I could get out of. You get a lot of experience dealing with ice that people nowadays don't get. I wonder how the icing fatality rate has changed since the rule change?

 

FYI

The Groszer Decision 1993 put a nail in the debate about known icing.

year       # of GA fatal icing ancients

1982  19

1983  18

1984  17

1985  15

1986  13

1987  12

1988  10

1989  7

1990  14

1991  8

1992  18

1993  9

1994  6

1995  17

1996  11

1997  4

1998  7

1999  8

2000  6

 

 

2010  14

2011  15

2012  8

2013  7

2014  8

So, the rule change didn't do much...

I'm not sure what your point is.

If a tail plane ices, the airplane is highly prone to tail plane stall, more so if the flaps are extended. No written regulation will repeal that physical fact. I only pointed out that the limitation on a FIKI airplane is there for that reason. If you're not FIKI, I still would not extend the flaps full if the plane accumulated ice, any airplane.

[carusoam]

Kind of a summary-ish….
 

0) Applause for DC… great question…!  +1 for sneaking in flaps / no flaps…. In a new and different way…. 

1) Ice is a nice discussion…. But not quite part of the OP’s question…. 

2) Rich gave a whole bunch of detail that probably won’t get picked up by the casual read… similar to landing with the baggage door wrapped around the tail plane….   (Keep your speed up until right over the runway or ground, and flaps won’t matter very much, important when flying with an unknown new2U airfoil….)

3) KIAS or MIAS doesn’t make much of a difference…. Unless we are discussing the M20F only, amongst people that can only use one OR the other…. Like the metric system… we all got used to it. 

4) Key numbers…. 1.0 X Vso, 1.1 X Vso, 1.2 X Vso, 1.3 X Vso… write them down we’ll use them later…. Right from the book, so we can compare to the reality of the individual plane…

5) Know your Vso, in your plane… know it’s variations with GW.

6) Know your stall horn as well… it may need adjustment

6.1) If your slow flight only turned the stall horn on, and didn’t go into a stall… As an owner of a single plane…. you want to know both speeds.

7) Know your ASI… it may need calibration

8) In my M20C… I often used 90,80,70…

9) In my M20R… I often use 90,80,70…   Hmmmmm….

10) Guess which one is mias and which is kias… 

11) Don Kaye has the most classic chart for calculating final approach speeds… send the Money, get the details…. Absorb the thought process…

12) Full flaps are for landing…

13) T/O flaps are often used for cross winds…

14) When having difficulty with full flaps…. Realize how strong they act as speed brakes… it is really hard to be on speed while descending with various brakes deployed…

15) Setting trim to match the flaps is a very Mooney specific thing… that only gives seconds to accomplish before falling behind the plane…

16) Would love to have been there to hear what the CFI was saying… sounds like something got lost in translation…

17) +1 For the 10kts over equals 1k’ of float…

18) Going fast + forcing the plane to land = porpoise

19) There are various bounces… a short list follows…

• One bounce… the hint of too much speed….  A go around is often initiated here…. Too little speed gives a thud, no bounce can follow…
• Two bounces… Control has probably left the PIC as he just became the PNIC… 
• Three bounces… if you hung out long enough for the third bounce you missed the whole point of the conversation….

20) When it comes to good decision making… one bounce is enough…

21) The third bounce is often the pile driver… prop strike, broken nose gear, the works….

22) How much flap is two pumps? Did the first pump even move the flaps?

23) Did you know it doesn’t cost very much to have the ASI redecorated with KIAs on the outer edge in beautiful graphics… Find Marauder for the best example before he turned his M20F into a giant digital display…  

Essentially landing is about speed control…

Get the chart…

Use the thought process…

Experiment at altitude…

Use what you learned at altitude to perform near the ground…

 

Then use half flaps…

Then use no flaps…

Then wrap a baggage door around the tail plane…

Then add ice…

See if we can find the Donkaye website…

https://donkaye.com/landing-video

Probably a good idea to discuss Don’s info with your CFI… this way you can see how things got lost in translation…

Best regards,

-a-

[201er]

^ The only person on Mooneyspace that can make a summary longer than the original thread! 

[rbp]

5 hours ago, Yetti said:

We go through this everytime and the manual says "flaps as needed"   Some need them more than others

“As needed “by the pilot, not”as needed”  by the airplane

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I haven't had more than a trace of ice on a Mooney since they changed the rules from known ice to forecast ice. When was that 95 or so? Before that I would routinely fly in any conditions that I could get out of. You get a lot of experience dealing with ice that people nowadays don't get. I wonder how the icing fatality rate has changed since the rule change?

 

FYI

The Groszer Decision 1993 put a nail in the debate about known icing.

year       # of GA fatal icing ancients

1982  19

1983  18

1984  17

1985  15

1986  13

1987  12

1988  10

1989  7

1990  14

1991  8

1992  18

1993  9

1994  6

1995  17

1996  11

1997  4

1998  7

1999  8

2000  6

 

 

2010  14

2011  15

2012  8

2013  7

2014  8

So, the rule change didn't do much...

The years before the change had 13.7 fatal accidents per year. The years since 9.23 fatal accidents per year. Reducing it by 33% and saving 4.5 fatal accidents per year seems huge to me.

[rbp]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

14) When having difficulty with full flaps…. Realize how strong they act as speed brakes… it is really hard to be on speed while descending with various brakes deployed…

A great landing starts with a great approach.  part of flying  a great approach Is configuring  the airplane— brakes flaps gear trim — In preparation for landing.  It’s really not that hard, But it does take practice and discipline

[carusoam]

Another thing that can add to the same challenge….

A simple increase of the TPA by a hundred feet or two….

Its like getting 10 or 20% more energy to dissipate before getting to the ground…

We like to discuss speed control… in the final moments….

But, getting into the zone… it is more energy control… 

Whip out the physics books… potential energy and kinetic energy…. 

 

But wait, there’s more…

-a-

[Ned Gravel]

9 hours ago, DCarlton said:

So many questions...  for the folks that consistently use full flaps landing, when do you deploy full flaps on an IFR approach?  Are you stabilized with full flaps way out at final approach fix (with a little extra power to compensate)?  Appreciate everyone's input.  Thanks.  

Two pumps on final before the FAF.  That configures the aircraft for the missed approach. 80 mph and slowing.  

Full flaps rarely, but only when visual.  And only when needing to keep the ground roll short.  More than two pumps does not increase lift, only drag.  

[rbp]

16 minutes ago, carusoam said:

But, getting into the zone… it is more energy control… 

Whip out the physics books… potential energy and kinetic energy…. 

or fly gliders and learn to do autorotations in helicopters

[carusoam]

Off airport… where ground level isn’t printed clearly on a pic of the airport… with all of its dimensions…must get interesting.
 

Do all gliders get speed brakes, or is that only the fancy gliders?

Best regards,

-a-

[rbp]

6 minutes ago, Ned Gravel said:

More than two pumps does not increase lift, only drag.  

since we know that adding the additional flaps  lowers the stalling speed, it must also  increases lift

[rbp]

1 minute ago, carusoam said:

Do all gliders get speed brakes, or is that only the fancy gliders

Only the oldest gliders don’t have speedbrakes such as the Schweitzer 2–33. 

[N201MKTurbo]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

I'm not sure what your point is.

If a tail plane ices, the airplane is highly prone to tail plane stall, more so if the flaps are extended. No written regulation will repeal that physical fact. I only pointed out that the limitation on a FIKI airplane is there for that reason. If you're not FIKI, I still would not extend the flaps full if the plane accumulated ice, any airplane.

I’ve moved on, now I’m just talking about flying in ice.

[201er]

45 minutes ago, rbp said:

Only the oldest gliders don’t have speedbrakes such as the Schweitzer 2–33. 

That’s cause they have dive brakes. That’s like spoilers but above and below the wing.

[carusoam]

Is Brother Daniel a glider CFI?

memory check…. 

-a-

[Pinecone]

3 hours ago, rbp said:

Only the oldest gliders don’t have speedbrakes such as the Schweitzer 2–33. 

2-33 and even the 2-22 have spoilers/speed brakes.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Pinecone

[rbp]

Wow, is my memory flying the 2-33 that bad?  Now I’m trying to remember what glider it was that I flew that had no spoilers