old six pack - what would you do with $20K?

[AJ88V]

Hi folks - I own a 1970 C model, but dropped off the aviation planet for the past 5 years and wanting to get back in the air.  Plan to get my BFR soon and make a ferry flight for a fresh annual and ADS-B out installation (was scheduled when covid hit).

Want to upgrade the panel from it's original 6 pack and could swing $20K.  I know full well that's not enough for what I want.

Current panel is basic bare-bones IFR circa 1970.  I am not instrument rated, but would like this update to set her up for light IFR and get my ticket in her.

Pretty much everything works in the current panel.  Pair of KX155s, KI-208 and KI-209 VORs, KMA-24 audio, PS Eng Intercom, switchable engine monitor, working flight instruments.

Have always liked the way Garmin stuff worked, but it looks like Dynon is cheaper to install and maintain with updates.  Used gear might be acceptable.  So would an iPod panel dock non-certified portion. 

Shop advice would also be appreciated.  Work would be done in the mid-Atlantic area, maybe as far west as Ohio or south to Florida ok.

So much has changed in the last 5 years!  $20K is not enough, but what would you do?  I'm all ears.  Thanks for your advice!

[Niko182]

GNX375, a PMA450B, and a G5 hsi. If you can swing it, 2 G5s.

[Ragsf15e]

I’d consider just popping in 2 gi-275s.  They fit the existing panel without cutting.  I have 2xG5s and like them, but they are a little older and require more panel cutting.

You are gonna want an ifr gps and an autopilot at some point.  Total cost will go above your $20k with the ap, but you can probably get the gi275s (or g5s) and an ifr gps installed for $20k.  You may want to look at a gnx375 for ADSB transponder and gps.

[Mooney Dog]

1 hour ago, Niko182 said:

GNX375, a PMA450B, and a G5 hsi. If you can swing it, 2 G5s.

I second the GNX375. Its an amazing GPS/ADSB in and out unit. Very easy to use in flight too.

I dont know what the prices would be now, but in 2019 2 G5s installed where about 10 grand. G5 now seem to be backordered so YMMV on where you go and who has stock. I would not go with the GI275 unless you want the extra features they give as they're more money all around. 

 

 

 

For reference here's my panel with G5s, GNX375, and 255. Only thing i wish i did when getting the upgrade was spend more and get a full engine monitoring system like the JPI900. 

[McMooney]

2 gi275 and a garmin 375 transponder

[hammdo]

Garmin Dual G5s and the 375 or 355.

I have Dual G5s and 355:

 

[Utah20Gflyer]

I did this almost exact exercise, I installed a Garmin 355, GI 275 HSI and a Garmin USB charger, that ran about 17k.   By busting your 20k budget just a little you could get the second GI 275.  The modern GPS and HSI are great and really increase the capability of the plane. 

[AJ88V]

Time to chime in just to say thanks for everybody's replies.  I'm a little surprised that all appear to be recommending Garmin and nothing else, and new Garmin and nothing used.  Are the new models that much better?  Is there nothing to be saved buying an older GPS/Comm unit?

You've triggered a lot of reading on my part.  Things have changed a lot. There's no urgency since I'm focussed on just getting me current and getting 88V back up in the air, maybe throw in some aerobatic flight (not in a Mooney ) to overcome any jitters that may have developed while I've been grounded.

FWIW, I already bought some ADS-B Out solution my A&P recommended.  Not sure of the unit. It's paid for and been sitting on their shelf for awhile.

Please continue to contribute your ideas.  I really appreciate it!

 

[carusoam]

AJ,

If you are only seeing pro big G responses…

And you want to know what the non big G guys are thinking….

You have to adjust how to ask your questions…

There are plenty of non big G solutions…

unfortunately, big G is the only player rapidly updating their options…

 

See if you can find a BK solution…

Dynon is supplying good competition…

Keep in mind your budget doesn’t leave much room to work…

Start working on the big picture …

Decide how what you buy today will support where you want to be tomorrow…

There are quite a few Aspen systems out there…

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

15 minutes ago, AJ88V said:

Time to chime in just to say thanks for everybody's replies.  I'm a little surprised that all appear to be recommending Garmin and nothing else, and new Garmin and nothing used.  Are the new models that much better?  Is there nothing to be saved buying an older GPS/Comm unit?

You've triggered a lot of reading on my part.  Things have changed a lot. There's no urgency since I'm focussed on just getting me current and getting 88V back up in the air, maybe throw in some aerobatic flight (not in a Mooney ) to overcome any jitters that may have developed while I've been grounded.

FWIW, I already bought some ADS-B Out solution my A&P recommended.  Not sure of the unit. It's paid for and been sitting on their shelf for awhile.

Please continue to contribute your ideas.  I really appreciate it!

 

Since the labor to install used is the same as new, for a lot of reasons (newest features, more time that Garmin supports it, warranty etc) it's better to do it once and do it right.

 

If you do the Garmin 375 GPS I would sell what's sitting on the shelf for 75% of what you paid (probably a Uavionix ADS-B out strobe or tail beacon that communicates with your old transponder). Having ADS-B-in displayed on the panel is very nice. Having a new solid state transponder is peace of mind also.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, AJ88V said:

Time to chime in just to say thanks for everybody's replies.  I'm a little surprised that all appear to be recommending Garmin and nothing else, and new Garmin and nothing used.  Are the new models that much better?  Is there nothing to be saved buying an older GPS/Comm unit?

You've triggered a lot of reading on my part.  Things have changed a lot. There's no urgency since I'm focussed on just getting me current and getting 88V back up in the air, maybe throw in some aerobatic flight (not in a Mooney ) to overcome any jitters that may have developed while I've been grounded.

FWIW, I already bought some ADS-B Out solution my A&P recommended.  Not sure of the unit. It's paid for and been sitting on their shelf for awhile.

Please continue to contribute your ideas.  I really appreciate it!

 

Unless you look around and find a used GTN 650 or 750 from a reliable source, there’s not a ton to be gained from used, but much to lose in failures, unsupported units, reworking your panel, etc.

[McMooney]

1 hour ago, AJ88V said:

Time to chime in just to say thanks for everybody's replies.  I'm a little surprised that all appear to be recommending Garmin and nothing else, and new Garmin and nothing used.  Are the new models that much better?  Is there nothing to be saved buying an older GPS/Comm unit?

You've triggered a lot of reading on my part.  Things have changed a lot. There's no urgency since I'm focussed on just getting me current and getting 88V back up in the air, maybe throw in some aerobatic flight (not in a Mooney ) to overcome any jitters that may have developed while I've been grounded.

FWIW, I already bought some ADS-B Out solution my A&P recommended.  Not sure of the unit. It's paid for and been sitting on their shelf for awhile.

Please continue to contribute your ideas.  I really appreciate it!

 

everyone is soo proud of their used equip, makes it unattractive

 

[Utah20Gflyer]

4 hours ago, AJ88V said:

Time to chime in just to say thanks for everybody's replies.  I'm a little surprised that all appear to be recommending Garmin and nothing else, and new Garmin and nothing used.  Are the new models that much better?  Is there nothing to be saved buying an older GPS/Comm unit?

You've triggered a lot of reading on my part.  Things have changed a lot. There's no urgency since I'm focussed on just getting me current and getting 88V back up in the air, maybe throw in some aerobatic flight (not in a Mooney ) to overcome any jitters that may have developed while I've been grounded.

FWIW, I already bought some ADS-B Out solution my A&P recommended.  Not sure of the unit. It's paid for and been sitting on their shelf for awhile.

Please continue to contribute your ideas.  I really appreciate it!

 

I looked heavily at used equipment including upgrading the VFR install of the KLN89b gps that came with the plane to IFR.  After much consideration I determined used equipment did not provide a good overall value, at least in my situation.  Install costs are considerable and prices for used equipment in my opinion is ridiculous.   I think the primary value of used equipment is to replace other used equipment that failed.  In those situations its a great value because often it's just slide one out, slide one in.  

As for why Garmin?  The reason is very simple.  Based on your budget the Garmin 175, 355 and 375 are the only ones that are an option that still leave you with enough money to do other equipment.  A 650 or equivalent from another provider is going to be 16-17k installed, at that point you wouldn't even have enough money to do a G5 HSI with install, let alone a GI275.   Garmin is the only provider to offer a budget series of GPS.  If you increased your budget to 25k you could consider the 650 or  Avidyne, etc. 

[icurnmedic]

My thought is if everything works, add a 650/750 and then start saving again and when time is right a 10 inch G3’s w/ engine monitor. 

[Mscheuer]

On 5/15/2022 at 12:19 PM, Mooney Dog said:

I second the GNX375. Its an amazing GPS/ADSB in and out unit. Very easy to use in flight too.

I dont know what the prices would be now, but in 2019 2 G5s installed where about 10 grand. G5 now seem to be backordered so YMMV on where you go and who has stock. I would not go with the GI275 unless you want the extra features they give as they're more money all around. 

 

 

 

For reference here's my panel with G5s, GNX375, and 255. Only thing i wish i did when getting the upgrade was spend more and get a full engine monitoring system like the JPI900. 

FYI, the PMA7000M-BT will slide right where your PMA6000M is right now. Bluetooth, IntelliVox, and a much improved and more modern user interface. Just thought I’d mention this.

Mark Scheuer

 

[hammdo]

Exactly what I did on my panel. Perfect right out of the box...

-Don

[Mooney Dog]

1 hour ago, Mscheuer said:

FYI, the PMA7000M-BT will slide right where your PMA6000M is right now. Bluetooth, IntelliVox, and a much improved and more modern user interface. Just thought I’d mention this.

Mark Scheuer

 

I had looked into this when doing upgrade, but there's nothing really wrong with my 6000 right now and i have bose for bluetooth. I am unsure about intellivox but ill look into that.

thanks! 

[Bigdaddie]

I started thinking I was going to do a $20k upgrade on my 1980 M20K panel.  I have a KFC200 A/P, GNS430(non-waas) as well as the other standard stuff for that era.  The biggest thing I wanted updated was the GPS to a WAAS unit; then the A/P started acting up and getting parts is difficult.  So, long story short my $20k upgrade is now $100k as I feel do it once and do it right.  What does $100k buy you may ask?  A full suite of Garmin avionics (I originally was thinking of Dynon but the price difference really is not that huge).  Keep in mind $100k includes $40k installation costs.  This system allows me to dump all the steam gauges and vacuum system.

My future panel is:

G3X 10.3” and maybe a 7” if we can find room

GTN750xi

G5 standby

GFC500 Autopilot

GMA350C

GNC255A

GTX345

CEIS fuel senders

[0TreeLemur]

Best first investment is a primary engine monitor.   Allows you to get rid of a bunch of gauges and hard-to-read tiny little easy-to-ignore meters that live down by your co-pilots left knee-cap.   Keeps flammables outside the firewall.  Allows you do diagnose power problems and actually warns you when something is wrong. 4AMUs+install.

Add a WAAS GPS.

Add a Appareo ADS-B out transponder if you don't have that capability.

If you pay full install, you have spent 20 AMU's and have the beginning of a very capable "modern" airplane.

If you have good hand skills and can work with your A&P,  you can do most of the labor on the engine monitor install.  Maybe you'll have some funds left over to start thinking about an autopilot.   We've gone Brittain, 3-axis, old-school, low tech, vacuum driven that requires friends in the know to maintain.   But it cost 20% what a "modern" autopilot would cost.

I've run the value calculations, & to me putting G5's in a C isn't particularly wise if you have a capable GPS from a financial standpoint.  Unless you just hate steam gauges, a six-pack is still a powerful thing, and backup AHRS is not very expensive.

 

 

[drifter001]

I’d be a +1 for a dual GI275 install

[Pinecone]

On 6/25/2022 at 10:55 PM, Bigdaddie said:

I started thinking I was going to do a $20k upgrade on my 1980 M20K panel.  I have a KFC200 A/P, GNS430(non-waas) as well as the other standard stuff for that era.  The biggest thing I wanted updated was the GPS to a WAAS unit; then the A/P started acting up and getting parts is difficult.  So, long story short my $20k upgrade is now $100k as I feel do it once and do it right.  What does $100k buy you may ask?  A full suite of Garmin avionics (I originally was thinking of Dynon but the price difference really is not that huge).  Keep in mind $100k includes $40k installation costs.  This system allows me to dump all the steam gauges and vacuum system.

My future panel is:

G3X 10.3” and maybe a 7” if we can find room

GTN750xi

G5 standby

GFC500 Autopilot

GMA350C

GNC255A

GTX345

CEIS fuel senders

Sounds like what I would do.

[Lionudakis]

I'm a Dynon fan, and at a minimum with engine monitoring built in, add in a remote com, transponder, adsb in/out, and cost wise you have a lot of functions for a lot less all on screen. The wiring part of the install is a fraction of a garmin system, I've done both.  I installed it myself as an A&P, whereas Garmin I couldn't. With that aside I still feel Dynon is more bang for the buck, and subscription alone is more affordable, and optional. If your handy and have an A&P who can supervise, the install is easy. Its not for everyone but can get you some sweat equity. The HDX will display nav data from most any external navigator. 

[Ragsf15e]

7 hours ago, Lionudakis said:

I'm a Dynon fan, and at a minimum with engine monitoring built in, add in a remote com, transponder, adsb in/out, and cost wise you have a lot of functions for a lot less all on screen. The wiring part of the install is a fraction of a garmin system, I've done both.  I installed it myself as an A&P, whereas Garmin I couldn't. With that aside I still feel Dynon is more bang for the buck, and subscription alone is more affordable, and optional. If your handy and have an A&P who can supervise, the install is easy. Its not for everyone but can get you some sweat equity. The HDX will display nav data from most any external navigator. 

I think the Dynon is another good option if you don’t want Garmin or maybe already have Avidyne gps units.  Just be aware that the dynon autopilot isn’t approved yet for Mooney.  It should be at some point, but you’re betting on them finishing that as you’ll be locked in.  Aviation approval timelines work on the decade scale.  I’m pretty confident it will be done this decade.  Past that, anyones guess.  If you need/want an upgrade now, Garmin is your option (and you’ll still likely wait 6months or more for parts/scheduling).  You could also install a Dynon pfd without the autopilot as that is approved and wait on the autopilot for now.  There are several folks on MS that have done this.

[MMsuper21]

To save some amu's I went with single GI275 ADHRS/HSI version interfaced with GNX375 and kx155 however it will be installed as MFD. 

Depending on the days mission I will get all the screens, traffic, weather, HSI, ADI, CDI etc...(not locked into a few screens when configured as primary) as a bonus it interfaces with VOR unlike the G5s which don't interface with legacy stuff. 

Also if one day my vacuum goes bye or some of the instruments I can add a second GI275 and be all set. Unlike the G5s are only primary for ADI and HSI.