Prop Governor

[Dialed In]

For the last year or so I have had a slight engine oil leak on my 65 E.  After nearly every flight I will get a few streaks down my gear doors, nothing terrible just enough to make a mess.  I have had a couple A&P's look into it without much luck, one thought it was where the case halves and the oil pan meet and although there is a slight wetness there it's not the problem.  Yesterday I changed the oil and put in some UV dye.  I cleaned the back of the engine up well and did an extended ground run working the prop after which I inspected the engine compartment with a UV light and found nothing.  I then installed the cowl and took a lap around the pattern.  Upon inspection I found a small leak on the propeller governor, the governor works well and responds quickly it does not drift either.  I have not looked at the logs but I suspect the last time it was gone through was in 96 with the engine and has almost 2400hrs on it.  I'm trying to figure out which way to go here as I fly fairly often and would like to somewhat limit the down time.  I believe the governor is a Hamilton Standard model 4K 11-GOJ has anyone had one of these overhauled?  The engine is a IO-360 A1A with a Hartzell B hub prop.  What other governors are available for this?  I have done a little research on the PCU-5000 governors and ran across some people that have not been happy with the overhaul costs on them as well as the TBO has anyone here installed one that required an overhaul "prematurely"?  Thanks,

-Chase

 

[0TreeLemur]

I think that's the same or similar to the governor that was on our C.  It started to wander pretty badly.  When I took it in for overhaul I was told by a reputable prop shop that it was an "antique" with so many AD's and SB it was cheaper to buy a PCU-5000 than overhaul it. So we did.

[carusoam]

Most people are updating to the PCU5000 if it lists their plane for eligibility…

If you have many thousands of hours on the govenor… it may be ready for an OH…

By the time you pull, inspect, and OH… you may be best to just a get a new PCU…

The PCUs are really low cost compared to an OH of the older system…

All Stuff I read around here…

Best regards,

-a-

[Boilermonkey]

Similar experience with some parts on out former M20C.  I had the shop call once and ask if we wanted the part sent to us or to a museum?    

[0TreeLemur]

If you do buy a PCU-5000, it requires changing out the studs that connect it to the accessory case.   That can be a pain... 

[Rjfanjet]

Just get the PCU5000 and don't worry about it again. I replaced my Edo Aire when I bought the plane. It was 50 years old. When I took my prop to the prop shop, they said the overhaul cost is almost always more expensive than the new governor.

[Dialed In]

Thanks for the responses guys I will likely just go with the pcu 5000. OTreeLemur did you do the install yourself? Is it as simple as removing the studs and installing the new ones or do you need to mess with the accessory case? Do you know if the studs go into the case and are exposed to oil or are they blind holes?  Were the studs included with the governor or bought separately? 

[M Terry]

I'm facing a Governor overhaul for my F model soon. I spoke to they Guy who runs the Governor shop in Van Nuys. He said he thought that the Mccauley was a better device than the PCU 5000. The quote to overhaul  mine was about 1/3 the cost of a rebuilt Mccauley.

I'm interested to hear of other's experience with rebuilds, and with the removing/replacing the device in the plane.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

You probably have 

5 minutes ago, M Terry said:

I'm facing a Governor overhaul for my F model soon. I spoke to they Guy who runs the Governor shop in Van Nuys. He said he thought that the Mccauley was a better device than the PCU 5000. The quote to overhaul  mine was about 1/3 the cost of a rebuilt Mccauley.

I'm interested to hear of other's experience with rebuilds, and with the removing/replacing the device in the plane.

 

You probably have a Hartzell H1. What’s wrong with that? If it is overhauled, it should work fine for thousands of hours.

[M Terry]

That's what the guy at the governor shop said, offered to look at it without cost and overhaul it if was in good enough shape to be overhauled. Turn around in their shop less than a week unless they have to send away for any parts not in stock, If replacement is needed he suggested the Mccauley

 

[A64Pilot]

An overhaul is as good as the person performing the work, and how tight the standards are that they are overhauling to

For instance I contend that a good engine overhaul can be better than factory new.

[Jim Peace]

I was told this month mine is toast on my 64c...

not sure what the plan is yet....they are having a hard time finding parts and other things like hoses etc...plane has been in annual for a month...

[Shep.G]

Reviving this thread for a moment:

Had the same leak as OP. Went ahead and leaned the engine over with my A&P to remove the governor. Clearly oil coming from it, pooling into that divot against the firewall that the governor rests over - and eventually ending up on the ground in the hangar just behind the main wheel.

Anyway, spoke to a one Dennis from Tiffin Aire at Seneca County Airport 16G - pleasant fellow, very receptive and helpful. Quoted just over $1K on an IRAN/OH "if nothing needed replaced"

Mailed him the governor. Spoke yesterday, washed out o-ring between the body and the base was the culprit of the leak. Same price quoted, under the same conditions.

Bad news today: upon teardown inspection, "internal parts 'obsolete' - requiring replacement in order to 8130". New quote ~ $2K.

Worse news - 64' M20C PCU 5000, looks like I pulled the short stick. One of the most expensive models on Spruce (ATH - 1)...... ~$3K.

Which way, western men? Rebuild or Replace?

[N201MKTurbo]

Send to West Coast Governor.

You can R&R that governor without tipping the engine. 

[47U]

6 hours ago, Shep.G said:

Worse news - 64' M20C PCU 5000, looks like I pulled the short stick. One of the most expensive models on Spruce (ATH - 1)...... ~$3K.

Keep in mind, the PCU5000 (ATH-1) is only approved if you are replacing a Hartzell governor on your Mooney.  The difference is the control arm clocking is of the opposite rotation from the Woodward/McCauley governors.  If the prop cable penetrates the firewall on the right side, then you are good to go with the ATH-1.  If your prop cable is on the left side, then the ATH-1 is not what you want.  

I think the Hartzell governors were only used in the ‘65-‘68 production years(?)… check the IBP to verify.

This prop cable routing/support bracket works with the ATH-1 (Index 14).

This prop cable routing support/bracket does not work with the ATH-1 (Index 26).

 

 

[Shadrach]

17 hours ago, Shep.G said:

Reviving this thread for a moment:

Had the same leak as OP. Went ahead and leaned the engine over with my A&P to remove the governor. Clearly oil coming from it, pooling into that divot against the firewall that the governor rests over - and eventually ending up on the ground in the hangar just behind the main wheel.

Anyway, spoke to a one Dennis from Tiffin Aire at Seneca County Airport 16G - pleasant fellow, very receptive and helpful. Quoted just over $1K on an IRAN/OH "if nothing needed replaced"

Mailed him the governor. Spoke yesterday, washed out o-ring between the body and the base was the culprit of the leak. Same price quoted, under the same conditions.

Bad news today: upon teardown inspection, "internal parts 'obsolete' - requiring replacement in order to 8130". New quote ~ $2K.

Worse news - 64' M20C PCU 5000, looks like I pulled the short stick. One of the most expensive models on Spruce (ATH - 1)...... ~$3K.

Which way, western men? Rebuild or Replace?

I would probably spend the extra 1k on the PCU5000.

[Shep.G]

22 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Send to West Coast Governor.

You can R&R that governor without tipping the engine. 

Tiffin Aire already has it in pieces on the bench...but I do believe you're right, it could have been done without tipping. I enjoyed the wrench time though.

 

16 hours ago, 47U said:

If the prop cable penetrates the firewall on the right side, then you are good to go with the ATH-1.  

Attaching some pictures I snapped before removal - looks to me like the cable is oriented to the right, but better to have a second set of eyes. The mechanic double checked the model #, but I will ask again.

5 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I would probably spend the extra 1k on the PCU5000.

Yea I'm leaning this way. @0TreeLemur mentioned having to change out the accessory case studs?

[N201MKTurbo]

32 minutes ago, Shep.G said:

Tiffin Aire already has it in pieces on the bench...but I do believe you're right, it could have been done without tipping. I enjoyed the wrench time though.

 

Attaching some pictures I snapped before removal - looks to me like the cable is oriented to the right, but better to have a second set of eyes. The mechanic double checked the model #, but I will ask again.

Yea I'm leaning this way. @0TreeLemur mentioned having to change out the accessory case studs?

You are not supposed to use teflon tape on your vacuum pump fittings. Little strings of tape can get into your pump and kill it. It is on the output fitting, it doesn't matter if it leaks.

[Shadrach]

2 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You are not supposed to use teflon tape on your vacuum pump fittings. Little strings of tape can get into your pump and kill it. It is on the output fitting, it doesn't matter if it leaks.

Indeed, although given that it's on the output fitting there is little chance of it getting sucked into the pump.

[Shadrach]

 

1 hour ago, Shep.G said:

Tiffin Aire already has it in pieces on the bench...but I do believe you're right, it could have been done without tipping. I enjoyed the wrench time though.

Attaching some pictures I snapped before removal - looks to me like the cable is oriented to the right, but better to have a second set of eyes. The mechanic double checked the model #, but I will ask again.Yea I'm leaning this way. @0TreeLemur mentioned having to change out the accessory case studs?

I did not install mine and have not removed it.  I cannot speak precisely to the stud change, but I am guessing it will require longer studs.  I think MT governors also require longer studs.

[47U]

2 hours ago, Shep.G said:

18 hours ago, 47U said:

If the prop cable penetrates the firewall on the right side, then you are good to go with the ATH-1.  

Attaching some pictures I snapped before removal - looks to me like the cable is oriented to the right, but better to have a second set of eyes. The mechanic double checked the model #, but I will ask again.

Your prop control cable support bracket will bolt right onto the ATH-1 governor.  They supply the matching bracket on the governor.

And…you might consider changing out the ball/socket rod end for a Heim bearing on your prop control cable.  It’s much less prone to failure.

[0TreeLemur]

8 hours ago, Shep.G said:

Yea I'm leaning this way. @0TreeLemur mentioned having to change out the accessory case studs?

Yes, we had to do that because the base flange on the PCU is thicker than the original governor on my C.  What a P.I.T.A.   Removing the originals was not fun.  Especially in July in an Alabama hangar.  Good luck.

[jamesm]

On 8/11/2023 at 9:56 AM, Shep.G said:

I might be stating the obvious  but the prop governor doesn't look like it has a cotter pin installed.  in the already hard to reach and get to control arm ball and socket of the prop governor. I am pretty sure that it should have one. unless  you are in the dry fitting stage  otherwise  if not welp I will hear about it.