Need advice / sharing my concerns with someone

[PeteMc]

My first question is who did the prior Annual?  (Sorry if someone already asked this, I didn't see it skimming through the messages.)

I'd be very curious why they missed the corrosion?!  Was the maintenance differed?  It seem very strange to me that the corrosion got so bad that it's grounding the plane now and no prior annual made note that corrosion was starting and needed to be watched.  Also surprised there was nothing done to try and slow or stop the corrosion.

I'd want to talk to the IA that signed off the last couple of annuals to confirm if the prior owner was aware of the issue.  There is always the possibility that they did NOT know.  It would be a shame if the shop they trusted really didn't do a full inspection and it got to this point.  So as far as the sale goes, the prior owner would not be in the mix if they had no clue.  That leaves the IA for the prior annuals and the shop that did the Pre-Buy to explain why you're finding out about this now.

 

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by PeteMc

[1980Mooney]

You may or may not have seen my earlier question. 

Did you have a chance to look at your Purchase Contract carefully.  Does it say that 1) all Airworthiness Issues found before the sale will be repaired by the Seller or does it say 2) The Seller certifies that the plane is Airworthy at the time of sale.

If it is the first it means on the day of the sale (afterthe Pre-buy) that all identified Airworthiness issueshad been addressed by the Seller before passing title to you. ( I e closing or completing the sale) Anything found after sale closed is your cost.

If it is the second then the Seller is on the hook because he sold you a plane that has Airworthiness Issues (i.e. Not Airworthy).  There are cases on line that tell Sellers to never agree to this language in a sale for this very reason

[redbaron1982]

14 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

You may or may not have seen my earlier question. 

Did you have a chance to look at your Purchase Contract carefully.  Does it say that 1) all Airworthiness Issues found before the sale will be repaired by the Seller or does it say 2) The Seller certifies that the plane is Airworthy at the time of sale.

If it is the first it means on the day of the sale (afterthe Pre-buy) that all identified Airworthiness issueshad been addressed by the Seller before passing title to you. ( I e closing or completing the sale) Anything found after sale closed is your cost.

If it is the second then the Seller is on the hook because he sold you a plane that has Airworthiness Issues (i.e. Not Airworthy).  There are cases on line that tell Sellers to never agree to this language in a sale for this very reason

Sorry I didn't replied to this. I did get the message and the contract says any airworthiness issues found at the prebuy. So I think is on my side to handle this now.

The previous owner used to fly the airplane daily, so I'm quite sure he was not aware of this either. 

The next thing to do is to get the pictures so I can share them with another MSC, probably Southwest Aviation, to see their opinion. And also getting the response from Mooney on this. 

With that then I will decide which is the best course of action. 

[DCarlton]

5 hours ago, corn_flake said:

@LANCECASPER   I'm sure the OP of this thread appreciate your help on actually resolving his specific situation. 

As a relatively new owner of GA aircraft (3 years), I'm simply astonished by the lack of desire to change things to ensure the survival of GA.  If we look hard enough across all GA aircrafts, the story of new comers misplaced their trust on some shops happens all the time.  If we truly enjoy GA, keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result is not a good plan.  The change may take a long time, and possibly beyond our life time.  But, taking the first step to acknowledge the problem will benefit the future generations well.  

I'll get off my soup box and let's talk about actionable items to avoid future occurrence of similar situation.  If shops can't be trusted to do their job, perhaps we need to have intermediary to act on buyer's behalf.  I imagine this could be a broker.  Or perhaps a network fo MSer to guide the new comers.  I would be willing to volunteer my time near my geographic location - CA.  

In the example of IT/Internet, if pioneers of internet kept the status quote of the 90s, instead of having this discussion in an online forum, we would still be sending letters with stamps using postal services!   

The future of GA seems to be in Experimental Aircraft and LSAs (unless you have really deep pockets).  Folks that want to get out from under the costs and processes associated with certified aircraft build.  Vans has sold as many RVs as Mooney has built M20s.  The owner builders become the experts.  If you want a modern hands off experience, you can write a $1M+ check (instead of a $100K check) and buy a new(er) airplane.  I just think we have to be realistic as to what to expect from a 30-50 year old airplane or the mechanic that's doing the best he can to balance the cost and liability of keeping old airplanes flying instead of grounding them. The more involved you get, the more you'll know, and the better off you'll be. 

[Becca]

17 hours ago, Austintatious said:

I am really sorry for the OP's experience... 

I would be pretty mad myself if this was to happen to me... In fact, It easily could have happened to me on my first mooney purchase.

... On that PPI they missed the fact that the MSC had not installed a switch for the prop heat.  After the sale, while digging into that issue,  we found that the MSC had also put the wrong propeller on the aircraft.  The only thing different with this "wrong propeller" was that the anti ice heated boots were for a 24v system while the aircraft has a 12v system, so the prop was not getting sufficient heat.   The shop that did the pre-buy and annual on that aircraft also missed that the Gear warning horn was non functional... That is straight up on the official Mooney annual punch list and they flat out didn't check it on the gear swing.

I like a few others here have been thoroughly unimpressed with the average quality of mechanics for GA.  Even at the MSC's I have been to.   

We really need to talk about this and the OP's experience with an MSC.  In my experience as a Mooney community member we loudly broadcast the benefits of MSC's, while quietly overlooking and complaining about the problems.

AFAIK, MSC's all got their designation decades ago.  The title "MSC" can be handed down generationally or sold to an entirely new business.  There is no ongoing training requirement for mechanics at MSC - maybe the original mechanics might have received training from the Mooney company, but it is unclear to me if the new mecahnics who have started working at these places over the last 40 years have any specialized training.  There's no requirement they have Mooney specific tooling or use Mooney-checklists for annuals or other repairs.  We have encountered MSC's that did not have the special tool required to change on an M20K Rocket or the gear pre-load tool required for every annual. It is not clear that they have any better access to Mooney parts or factory support, but maybe they do, at least for what's left of the factory.  I am unaware of any factory quality-control mechanism or way an Mooney could lose its MSC designation for malfeasance, let alone for poor quality or decreasing knowledge of Mooneys. 

I guess it seems to me that MSC's have the same variation in quality as all other mechanics.  Some are great, some are terrible.  Having MSC's seems to be great for our brand... but with enough of these stories, having MSCs is both harmful for the brand and GA generally as Mooneys get an undeserved reputation of being hard and expensive to maintain.  Compare this to the Cirrus Service Center system - Mooneys will never be Cirrus, we serve a different price point and most of our owners would be appalled at the Cirrus service pricing.  But you go to any Cirrus Service Center, and they are following the same procedures, they have centralized records on your aircraft, you can expect the same quality of work, and the Cirrus factory carefully polices their quality, training, and methods in order for them to maintain that designation - the network bands together to ensure seamless 24/7 nationwide support and special AOG support no matter where you need service.  Its more than just parachutes that sells those planes.

For all the blame going on here there is absolutely no excuse for a mechanic, especially one who has done half an annual as part of a prebuy, not checking for corrosion.  Corrosion is like the #1 thing you should be looking for on the pre-buy.  And anyone who has more than a passing knowledge of Mooneys knows that spar corrosion is a significant issue.  Did they provide a pre-buy report? It should say "inspected for corrosion!"  We've noticed recently more and more planes are not getting a pre-buy report, which surprises me. 

I have no solution to propose.  Pilots repeatedly reject publicly reviewing mechanics, they don't want to burn relationships or hurt a small business with a bad review - let alone a designated member of the Mooney community -  so its hard to find someone actually both naming and criticizing bad MSCs.  I have to wonder if one day we will have some sort of alternative credentialing body to help owners that are mechanical-novices from finding credible maintenance.

(Not to self promote, but y'all know I am not a disinterested party in this because my husband @jetdriven started as small maintenance business, RPM.  He does have a gear pre-load tool, the tool require to change the oil on an M20K Rocket, and uses the Mooney checklist for annuals and 100 hrs.)

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Becca

[Becca]

7 hours ago, DCarlton said:

The future of GA seems to be in Experimental Aircraft and LSAs (unless you have really deep pockets).  Folks that want to get out from under the costs and processes associated with certified aircraft build.  Vans has sold as many RVs as Mooney has built M20s.  The owner builders become the experts.  If you want a modern hands off experience, you can write a $1M+ check (instead of a $100K check) and buy a new(er) airplane.  I just think we have to be realistic as to what to expect from a 30-50 year old airplane or the mechanic that's doing the best he can to balance the cost and liability of keeping old airplanes flying instead of grounding them. The more involved you get, the more you'll know, and the better off you'll be. 

I do think there's something here for the FAA to increase the length of the list of owner-performed maintenance on their personally owned production plane.  Perhaps even require a certification for this on the order of a weekend course and a certain number of hours of supervised work. 

That said, there's still lots of GA pilots that want to be able to drop their planes off for repair and get it when ready. They may not have the time or inclination to do their own maintenance and that's also why an experimental is not appealing to them.  I mean look at oil changes - private pilots permitted to do their own oil change, it doesn't require an A&P, I learned how to change oil in a Cessna (and change spark plugs, and lights) shortly after getting my private pilot license on our flying club airplanes before I had ever even looked under the hood of a car, its not hard... however, most owners do not change their own oil and pay a mechanic to do that. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Becca

[Shadrach]

On 1/7/2022 at 6:55 PM, 1980Mooney said:

You mention that the MSC is FlightLevel at Norwood.near the owner's home base.  When I look that up it appears to be in Massachusetts.  Are you buying a Mooney in Massachusetts or in Texas?  Is the "sale and purchase" taking place in Massachusetts and therefore taxable in Massachusetts?   The "Occasional Sale" Tax Exemption is for a "sale and purchase" in Texas.  If the owner is in Mass. and it is registered in Mass. and the plane is physically in Mass. then you are buying it in Mass. and paying Mass. Sales Tax.  There is no "Occasional Sale" in Texas.  Can you clarify?

To your question on issues found after a "Pre-buy":  A Pre-Buy is not an Annual.  Generally you get what you pay for in a Pre-buy.  More invasive inspection requires more shop hours which requires a higher price for the Pre-Buy.  But a good pre-buy should include opening inspection panels to look for corrosion.  Many times the first annual after a purchase will be expensive.  Here was a comment in 2012 that the buyer of a M20C had $4,000 in repairs after a Don Maxwell "Pre-buy" which should have been the gold standard of pre-buys.  https://mooneyspace.com/topic/8014-how-often-does-a-pre-buy-fail-to-catch-something-major/#:~:text=BigTex,21 Model%3A M20C  Also there was a thread this year from a buyer of a Rocket that posted here last April that the "pre-buy went well".  Then last month he was trying to sell it (actually a failed sale) and admitted in a heated post that his first Annual cost $10,000. 

This corrosion sounds unfortunate.  I cant imagine that it all occurred since the last Annual - it must have been over a long time.  Did FlightLevel at Norwood perform the last Annual?  Corrosion is something that the pre-buy should have caught if you paid for them to open all the inspection panels.

 

 

Never bought a plane out of state. Bought lots of cars and trucks. So buying an airplane out of state is the opposite of buying other vehicles?  If I buy any other vehicle in Massachusetts regardless of where it’s titled and I living in Maryland, wish to register it in Maryland, I pay Maryland sales tax, not Massachusetts sales tax.  Even online retailers that charge sales tax due so based on the buyers location not the products origin.

[redbaron1982]

5 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Never bought a plane out of state. Bought lots of cars and trucks. So buying an airplane out of state is the opposite of buying other vehicles?  If I buy any other vehicle in Massachusetts regardless of where it’s titled and I living in Maryland, wish to register it in Maryland, I pay Maryland sales tax, not Massachusetts sales tax.  Even online retailers that charge sales tax due so based on the buyers location not the products origin.

Yeah, that's correct. In case of Texas, you have 6.25% sales tax, which you are exempt if the transaction is done between "occasional" salers, meaning, people who do not do this for a living.

In order to go down this road, the seller needs to sign a paper declaring that he is not in the buisness of selling airplanes. 

This has been already resolved, and now I have the paper to present in the state of Texas for the exemption, so I don't have to pay the 6.25% tax here. Maybe this will help cover some of the corrosion repairs!

[toto]

1 minute ago, redbaron1982 said:

This has been already resolved, and now I have the paper to present in the state of Texas for the exemption

Nice. One issue down… one to go

[MooneyMitch]

1 hour ago, Becca said:

AFAIK, MSC's all got their designation decades ago.  The title "MSC" can be handed down generationally or sold to an entirely new business.  There is no ongoing training requirement for mechanics at MSC - maybe the original mechanics might have received training from the Mooney company, but it is unclear to me if the new mecahnics who have started working at these places over the last 40 years have any specialized training.  There's no requirement they have Mooney specific tooling or use Mooney-checklists for annuals or other repairs.  We have encountered MSC's that did not have the special tool required to change on an M20K Rocket or the gear pre-load tool required for every annual. It is not clear that they have any better access to Mooney parts or factory support, but maybe they do, at least for what's left of the factory.  I am unaware of any factory quality-control mechanism or way an Mooney could lose its MSC designation for malfeasance, let alone for poor quality or decreasing knowledge of Mooneys. 

Definitely information for thought and consideration. 

[1980Mooney]

11 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Never bought a plane out of state. Bought lots of cars and trucks. So buying an airplane out of state is the opposite of buying other vehicles?  If I buy any other vehicle in Massachusetts regardless of where it’s titled and I living in Maryland, wish to register it in Maryland, I pay Maryland sales tax, not Massachusetts sales tax.  Even online retailers that charge sales tax due so based on the buyers location not the products origin.

State tax laws vary.  Some states charge sales tax but have "fly away exemptions" but not all like for example, Hawaii, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and South Carolina do not have a fly away exemption.  I think an out of state buyer has to pay the sales tax in those states and then they get a credit for anything due in their home state.

https://www.bjtonline.com/business-jet-news/flying/flying-away-from-state-sales-taxes

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/legal-insight-implications-lessor-and-fly-away-state-tax-exemptions-associated

[toto]

1 hour ago, Becca said:

We really need to talk about this and the OP's experience with an MSC.  In my experience as a Mooney community member we loudly broadcast the benefits of MSC's, while quietly overlooking and complaining about the problems.

AFAIK, MSC's all got their designation decades ago.  The title "MSC" can be handed down generationally or sold to an entirely new business.  There is no ongoing training requirement for mechanics at MSC - maybe the original mechanics might have received training from the Mooney company, but it is unclear to me if the new mecahnics who have started working at these places over the last 40 years have any specialized training.  There's no requirement they have Mooney specific tooling or use Mooney-checklists for annuals or other repairs.  We have encountered MSC's that did not have the special tool required to change on an M20K Rocket or the gear pre-load tool required for every annual. It is not clear that they have any better access to Mooney parts or factory support, but maybe they do, at least for what's left of the factory.  I am unaware of any factory quality-control mechanism or way an Mooney could lose its MSC designation for malfeasance, let alone for poor quality or decreasing knowledge of Mooneys. 

I guess it seems to me that MSC's have the same variation in quality as all other mechanics.  Some are great, some are terrible.  Having MSC's seems to be great for our brand... but with enough of these stories, having MSCs is both harmful for the brand and GA generally as Mooneys get an undeserved reputation of being hard and expensive to maintain.  Compare this to the Cirrus Service Center system - Mooneys will never be Cirrus, we serve a different price point and most of our owners would be appalled at the Cirrus service pricing.  But you go to any Cirrus Service Center, and they are following the same procedures, they have centralized records on your aircraft, you can expect the same quality of work, and the Cirrus factory carefully polices their quality, training, and methods in order for them to maintain that designation - the network bands together to ensure seamless 24/7 nationwide support and special AOG support no matter where you need service.  Its more than just parachutes that sells those planes.

For all the blame going on here there is absolutely no excuse for a mechanic, especially one who has done half an annual as part of a prebuy, not checking for corrosion.  Corrosion is like the #1 thing you should be looking for on the pre-buy.  And anyone who has more than a passing knowledge of Mooneys knows that spar corrosion is a significant issue.  Did they provide a pre-buy report? It should say "inspected for corrosion!"  We've noticed recently more and more planes are not getting a pre-buy report, which surprises me. 

I have no solution to propose.  Pilots repeatedly reject publicly reviewing mechanics, they don't want to burn relationships or hurt a small business with a bad review - let alone a designated member of the Mooney community -  so its hard to find someone actually both naming and criticizing bad MSCs.  I have to wonder if one day we will have some sort of alternative credentialing body to help owners that are mechanical-novices from finding credible maintenance.

(Not to self promote, but y'all know I am not a disinterested party in this because my husband @jetdriven started as small maintenance business, RPM.  He does have a gear pre-load tool, the tool require to change the oil on an M20K Rocket, and uses the Mooney checklist for annuals and 100 hrs.)

 

This feels like it needs its own thread. The MSC certification thing comes up occasionally, but often buried in unrelated threads, and I'd really like to have a sticky resource on MS that lays all out. 

From my own very limited experience, there was a shop in KC that lost its MSC designation according to the DOM because they had one Mooney-trained technician who left, and they could not continue advertising as an MSC without him. There was also a new MSC added in the KC area within the last two years, which I’m assuming was done by Mooney Intl (they added it to the Mooney website, so Mooney was involved in one way or another).

[Shadrach]

8 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

Yeah, that's correct. In case of Texas, you have 6.25% sales tax, which you are exempt if the transaction is done between "occasional" salers, meaning, people who do not do this for a living.

In order to go down this road, the seller needs to sign a paper declaring that he is not in the buisness of selling airplanes. 

This has been already resolved, and now I have the paper to present in the state of Texas for the exemption, so I don't have to pay the 6.25% tax here. Maybe this will help cover some of the corrosion repairs!

In the whole scheme of things there are worse places to find corrosion. I’m not saying repairing/replacing the stub spar is easy or inexpensive but it’s likely better than dealing with spar corrosion. There are sections of the Mooney wing where oil/moisture/dirt can accumulate. It is worth it to pay special attention those areas. I don’t open up all the outer wing panels on my plane at every annual because that section of the interior of that section of wing is so  could almost eat off it. However, the stations close to the fuselage get hit with engine oil, unseen fuel tank weeps, exhaust, dust and dirt from start up, etc. etc. Those are the areas that I go after with Non-flammable solvent, vacuum and compressed air. Keeping aluminum clean, dry, and well coated with zinc chromate/phosphate is about all you can do to prevent corrosion and they are still no guarantees.

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, Becca said:

We really need to talk about this and the OP's experience with an MSC.  In my experience as a Mooney community member we loudly broadcast the benefits of MSC's, while quietly overlooking and complaining about the problems.

AFAIK, MSC's all got their designation decades ago.  The title "MSC" can be handed down generationally or sold to an entirely new business.  There is no ongoing training requirement for mechanics at MSC - maybe the original mechanics might have received training from the Mooney company, but it is unclear to me if the new mecahnics who have started working at these places over the last 40 years have any specialized training.  There's no requirement they have Mooney specific tooling or use Mooney-checklists for annuals or other repairs.  We have encountered MSC's that did not have the special tool required to change on an M20K Rocket or the gear pre-load tool required for every annual. It is not clear that they have any better access to Mooney parts or factory support, but maybe they do, at least for what's left of the factory.  I am unaware of any factory quality-control mechanism or way an Mooney could lose its MSC designation for malfeasance, let alone for poor quality or decreasing knowledge of Mooneys. 

I guess it seems to me that MSC's have the same variation in quality as all other mechanics.  Some are great, some are terrible.  Having MSC's seems to be great for our brand... but with enough of these stories, having MSCs is both harmful for the brand and GA generally as Mooneys get an undeserved reputation of being hard and expensive to maintain.  Compare this to the Cirrus Service Center system - Mooneys will never be Cirrus, we serve a different price point and most of our owners would be appalled at the Cirrus service pricing.  But you go to any Cirrus Service Center, and they are following the same procedures, they have centralized records on your aircraft, you can expect the same quality of work, and the Cirrus factory carefully polices their quality, training, and methods in order for them to maintain that designation - the network bands together to ensure seamless 24/7 nationwide support and special AOG support no matter where you need service.  Its more than just parachutes that sells those planes.

For all the blame going on here there is absolutely no excuse for a mechanic, especially one who has done half an annual as part of a prebuy, not checking for corrosion.  Corrosion is like the #1 thing you should be looking for on the pre-buy.  And anyone who has more than a passing knowledge of Mooneys knows that spar corrosion is a significant issue.  Did they provide a pre-buy report? It should say "inspected for corrosion!"  We've noticed recently more and more planes are not getting a pre-buy report, which surprises me. 

I have no solution to propose.  Pilots repeatedly reject publicly reviewing mechanics, they don't want to burn relationships or hurt a small business with a bad review - let alone a designated member of the Mooney community -  so its hard to find someone actually both naming and criticizing bad MSCs.  I have to wonder if one day we will have some sort of alternative credentialing body to help owners that are mechanical-novices from finding credible maintenance.

(Not to self promote, but y'all know I am not a disinterested party in this because my husband @jetdriven started as small maintenance business, RPM.  He does have a gear pre-load tool, the tool require to change the oil on an M20K Rocket, and uses the Mooney checklist for annuals and 100 hrs.)

 

The designation of an MSC is determined by Mooney International.  Just like Cirrus controls which service centers are "certified".  MSC is not some designation for life that can be handed down.  Now Mooney Int'l in its near dead state may not be paying much attention to the MSC's which may support your observation of no training, no quality control, etc.

[MooneyMitch]

9 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

The designation of an MSC is determined by Mooney International.  Just like Cirrus controls which service centers are "certified".  MSC is not some designation for life that can be handed down.  Now Mooney Int'l in its near dead state may not be paying much attention to the MSC's which may support your observation of no training, no quality control, etc.

I do believe this topic is most worthy of discussion and definitely worthy with comparing an MSC to a Cirrus service center.  
 

[Becca]

19 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

The designation of an MSC is determined by Mooney International.  Just like Cirrus controls which service centers are "certified".  MSC is not some designation for life that can be handed down.  Now Mooney Int'l in its near dead state may not be paying much attention to the MSC's which may support your observation of no training, no quality control, etc.

 

I know of several MSC's that are under entirely new ownership from the original MSC owner (Dugosh, for example, right?).  Was Mooney involved in re-certify them or approving the transfer?

[Becca]

30 minutes ago, toto said:

This feels like it needs its own thread. The MSC certification thing comes up occasionally, but often buried in unrelated threads, and I'd really like to have a sticky resource on MS that lays all out. 

From my own very limited experience, there was a shop in KC that lost its MSC designation according to the DOM because they had one Mooney-trained technician who left, and they could not continue advertising as an MSC without him. There was also a new MSC added in the KC area within the last two years, which I’m assuming was done by Mooney Intl (they added it to the Mooney website, so Mooney was involved in one way or another).

Good to know there are still ways to get the MSC designation!  I think a newer designated one might be the way to go!
You are right this deserves its own thread.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Becca

[MooneyMitch]

I do believe the person that oversaw MSC’s no longer works for Mooney.  Maybe peek in Dugosh hangar for him these days .

Edit:   I stand corrected.  Thank you Debbie 

Edited January 9, 2022 by MooneyMitch

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, Becca said:

We really need to talk about this and the OP's experience with an MSC.  In my experience as a Mooney community member we loudly broadcast the benefits of MSC's, while quietly overlooking and complaining about the problems.

AFAIK, MSC's all got their designation decades ago.  The title "MSC" can be handed down generationally or sold to an entirely new business.  There is no ongoing training requirement for mechanics at MSC - maybe the original mechanics might have received training from the Mooney company, but it is unclear to me if the new mecahnics who have started working at these places over the last 40 years have any specialized training.  There's no requirement they have Mooney specific tooling or use Mooney-checklists for annuals or other repairs.  We have encountered MSC's that did not have the special tool required to change on an M20K Rocket or the gear pre-load tool required for every annual. It is not clear that they have any better access to Mooney parts or factory support, but maybe they do, at least for what's left of the factory.  I am unaware of any factory quality-control mechanism or way an Mooney could lose its MSC designation for malfeasance, let alone for poor quality or decreasing knowledge of Mooneys. 

I guess it seems to me that MSC's have the same variation in quality as all other mechanics.  Some are great, some are terrible.  Having MSC's seems to be great for our brand... but with enough of these stories, having MSCs is both harmful for the brand and GA generally as Mooneys get an undeserved reputation of being hard and expensive to maintain.  Compare this to the Cirrus Service Center system - Mooneys will never be Cirrus, we serve a different price point and most of our owners would be appalled at the Cirrus service pricing.  But you go to any Cirrus Service Center, and they are following the same procedures, they have centralized records on your aircraft, you can expect the same quality of work, and the Cirrus factory carefully polices their quality, training, and methods in order for them to maintain that designation - the network bands together to ensure seamless 24/7 nationwide support and special AOG support no matter where you need service.  Its more than just parachutes that sells those planes.

For all the blame going on here there is absolutely no excuse for a mechanic, especially one who has done half an annual as part of a prebuy, not checking for corrosion.  Corrosion is like the #1 thing you should be looking for on the pre-buy.  And anyone who has more than a passing knowledge of Mooneys knows that spar corrosion is a significant issue.  Did they provide a pre-buy report? It should say "inspected for corrosion!"  We've noticed recently more and more planes are not getting a pre-buy report, which surprises me. 

I have no solution to propose.  Pilots repeatedly reject publicly reviewing mechanics, they don't want to burn relationships or hurt a small business with a bad review - let alone a designated member of the Mooney community -  so its hard to find someone actually both naming and criticizing bad MSCs.  I have to wonder if one day we will have some sort of alternative credentialing body to help owners that are mechanical-novices from finding credible maintenance.

(Not to self promote, but y'all know I am not a disinterested party in this because my husband @jetdriven started as small maintenance business, RPM.  He does have a gear pre-load tool, the tool require to change the oil on an M20K Rocket, and uses the Mooney checklist for annuals and 100 hrs.)

 

I'd like to see a separate thread on checking for corrosion on a 30-50 year old Mooney.  We all know about SB208.  But what about the wings?  Is there a written procedure?  Anything that suggests which cover plates to remove and where to look; where are the hot spots?  I do the best I can and so does my mechanic but I haven't seen a lot of examples of Mooney corrosion.  I'd actually like to take my aircraft to a "MSC" to have a dedicated focused condition inspection outside of an annual.  The work product would be nothing but a report with recommendations as to where to focus maintenance.  [BTW, if you get a termite inspection on a 50 year old house that you're planning to buy, are you 100% sure there is no termite damage?  Are you even 50% sure?  It's perhaps easier on a M20 but it's still a hard problem without a lot of time and money.]

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Becca said:

We really need to talk about this and the OP's experience with an MSC.  In my experience as a Mooney community member we loudly broadcast the benefits of MSC's, while quietly overlooking and complaining about the problems.

AFAIK, MSC's all got their designation decades ago.  The title "MSC" can be handed down generationally or sold to an entirely new business.  There is no ongoing training requirement for mechanics at MSC - maybe the original mechanics might have received training from the Mooney company, but it is unclear to me if the new mecahnics who have started working at these places over the last 40 years have any specialized training.  There's no requirement they have Mooney specific tooling or use Mooney-checklists for annuals or other repairs.  We have encountered MSC's that did not have the special tool required to change on an M20K Rocket or the gear pre-load tool required for every annual. It is not clear that they have any better access to Mooney parts or factory support, but maybe they do, at least for what's left of the factory.  I am unaware of any factory quality-control mechanism or way an Mooney could lose its MSC designation for malfeasance, let alone for poor quality or decreasing knowledge of Mooneys. 

I guess it seems to me that MSC's have the same variation in quality as all other mechanics.  Some are great, some are terrible.  Having MSC's seems to be great for our brand... but with enough of these stories, having MSCs is both harmful for the brand and GA generally as Mooneys get an undeserved reputation of being hard and expensive to maintain.  Compare this to the Cirrus Service Center system - Mooneys will never be Cirrus, we serve a different price point and most of our owners would be appalled at the Cirrus service pricing.  But you go to any Cirrus Service Center, and they are following the same procedures, they have centralized records on your aircraft, you can expect the same quality of work, and the Cirrus factory carefully polices their quality, training, and methods in order for them to maintain that designation - the network bands together to ensure seamless 24/7 nationwide support and special AOG support no matter where you need service.  Its more than just parachutes that sells those planes.

For all the blame going on here there is absolutely no excuse for a mechanic, especially one who has done half an annual as part of a prebuy, not checking for corrosion.  Corrosion is like the #1 thing you should be looking for on the pre-buy.  And anyone who has more than a passing knowledge of Mooneys knows that spar corrosion is a significant issue.  Did they provide a pre-buy report? It should say "inspected for corrosion!"  We've noticed recently more and more planes are not getting a pre-buy report, which surprises me. 

I have no solution to propose.  Pilots repeatedly reject publicly reviewing mechanics, they don't want to burn relationships or hurt a small business with a bad review - let alone a designated member of the Mooney community -  so its hard to find someone actually both naming and criticizing bad MSCs.  I have to wonder if one day we will have some sort of alternative credentialing body to help owners that are mechanical-novices from finding credible maintenance.

(Not to self promote, but y'all know I am not a disinterested party in this because my husband @jetdriven started as small maintenance business, RPM.  He does have a gear pre-load tool, the tool require to change the oil on an M20K Rocket, and uses the Mooney checklist for annuals and 100 hrs.)

 

My experience with current MSC designation is that their Mooney specific knowledge and capabilities very as much as non MSC shops.  Someone like Byron that has owned, operated and maintained a Mooney as well as being plugged into the community for more than a decade is likely more well versed in Mooney specific MX than many regardless of “MSC” status.

[MooneyMitch]

9 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Someone like Byron that has owned, operated and maintained a Mooney as well as being plugged into the community for more than a decade is likely more well versed in Mooney specific MX than many regardless of “MSC” status.

Agree.

With respect to the difficult and most unfortunate situation of the OP’s, I suspect Bryon would place corrosion as a priority on a Mooney pre buy inspection.

[1980Mooney]

52 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

I do believe this topic is most worthy of discussion and definitely worthy with comparing an MSC to a Cirrus service center.  
 

Ummm...isn't @M20Doc at Tri-City both an MSC and Certified Cirrus Center?.......

[jetdriven]

here is a 570-hour, 2006 engine with gray paint over the crush washer on the oil sump screen. Which means its never been removed in 16 years.  Perhaps a third of the airplanes we get here the first time, we see this.  The prebuy-annual was done by a "respected MSC shop" near the seller's home airport. Reviewing the logbooks, the seller had this same shop do his prebuy/annual three years prior.   Neither log entry mentions the mooney factory checklist.  Or removing this sump screen. The aileron center link was banging into the retract truss, there's a Mooney kit for that.  Sparks coming off the starter relay because the nuts were loose. A couple oval belly panels were driven in so tight, they had deformed the belly skin, and had to be drilled out to be removed. The panel hadnt been removed in years, the spar is behind those panels.   The buyer, my client, mentioned the shop said they couldnt drill those screws without the previous owner's permission, but it was OK. 

[ilovecornfields]

1 hour ago, MooneyMitch said:

I do believe this topic is most worthy of discussion and definitely worthy with comparing an MSC to a Cirrus service center.  
 

We did have a thread recently on MSCs. At this point, I’m not sure the designation means much to me.
 

I did recently have work done an an MSC but not because of its designation as an MSC. I went there because they are professional and do good work.

 

[carusoam]

Review….

1) We all know the name on the building is not as important as the name on the guy doing the work…

2) There are some fancy Mooney Service Center signs on sign posts that haven’t serviced a Mooney in decades…

3) Cirrus business models are pretty straight forwards… and admirable… and attract many new plane buyers…. Imagine going to a new plane show room….  
 

4) Parachutes aren’t perfect, but do sell new planes… auto land might work pretty well too…

 

5) What works when looking for a shop…

The search of MS reveals a ton of pireps…

6) Everyone knows how to search…

7) Everyone knows one or two bad experiences are going to be found….

8) There are more good pireps for people and services than there are bad ones… both types are important…

9) there are at least two MSCs in Massachusetts… I don’t remember any long standing killer bad pireps for either…

10) My favorite MSC got a few bad pireps… that were honest feed back… about atrocious maintenance…

11) Some shops are better for different people… some like the full service and can afford to pay for it…  others like the owner assisted annuals…  and many like to see what is behind all of those panels before they get buttoned up…

 

So…. Know the power of pireps, write some positive ones because they are most helpful for other people…

Write a negative one when needed…

 

Use caution when stirring the pot… if you meant it as being humor… use one of these… 

Pireps are most meaningful when your name is attached to it…

PP thoughts only, not the writing police…

-a-