Crosswind takeoffs

[Ibra]

- In gusty landings, you only have to deal with an aircraft that does not want to land and you have an option to go-around early

- In gusty takeoffs, you have to be careful you or aircraft lifts too early without adequate corrections and your option to reject is limited

A bit of cross controls (forward slip?) on ground helps as you delay lift off as you centralize it won’t go down again in gusty crosswinds, the drawback is extra drag and you should expect more runway length this is not factored in POH, if you add sink rate & turbulence from hangars & tress on the side you could be looking for +40% extra factors on your 50ft takeoff distance on gusty crosswind days, if you have no headwind component to surf on...

If you are into +25kts winds flying with large gust factors you are likely to find out that 1/ the controls has to be in the right place during taxi & takeoff & landing and 2/ taxing & takeoff in gusty crosswinds is easily done without flaps (it’s same trade-off of stability & rudder authority vs runway length & width vs stall speeds), the only “real wind limits” are runway length, width and ability to taxi at slow speeds

The issue is that dual instruction flying tend to stop at 25kts I always suggest one to find an instructor to help with techniques up to some value X, then beyond X one need to expand their own envelope with their own currency: it works fine as long as they go slowly and avoid (gusty + wet/soft + short) combination

Mooneys have an awfully low demonstrated crosswind XW in POH and most instructors will be reluctant to go > 2*XW number during training but aircraft can take some winds on long runways when in fresh hands

PS: flying tailwheels and low wing loading helps as well

Edited November 30, 2021 by Ibra

[donkaye]

The commonly written and taught method of taking off in crosswinds by holding aileron into the wind and lifting off the downwind main wheel first is nice in theory, but sometimes not so nice in practice, if winds are gusty.  Lifting off at minimum speed in a gusty crosswind can produce undesirable results using the above technique.

C83, Byron California, often has direct crosswinds in excess of 20 knots on its larger runway.  It usually has the cheapest fuel in the Bay area.  So, it has the double benefit of being able to practice crosswind takeoffs and landings and getting cheap fuel at the same time.  Since it is rare to have strong crosswinds in the Bay Area proper, that's where I go and take students for crosswind practice.

In a strong crosswind I prefer holding the airplane on the ground until beyond the normal takeoff speed with, of course, aileron into the wind, and "popping" the airplane off the ground with coordinated controls to crab into the wind. That excess speed should not be so large as to create a "wheelbarrowing" effect before takeoff.  The excess lift generated before leaving the ground converts into a safety factor of not skidding across the runway downwind or not slamming into the ground by a downward gust, if the minimum takeoff speed is misjudged.  To help further, I'd stay in ground effect until past Vx.

Regarding crosswind landings, it's possible to land in crosswinds significantly greater than the maximum demonstrated crosswind stated in the POH.  This requires practice with landings in progressively greater crosswinds.  I determine flap setting in those situations by crabbing on final.  I think crabbing is better on final than slipping both because it allows better continual evaluation of the crosswind strength and requires much less effort in flying the airplane.  I use whatever flap setting and airspeed will keep the crab angle at less than 15° to the runway at the appropriate approach speed.  Experience with the Bravo tells me that a direct crosswind of 30 knots will require no flaps and airspeed of close to 100 knots.  That 100 knots WILL be the touchdown speed, meaning landing "gently" with power and gradually removing it while increasing aileron into the wind.  If a point is reached during the slowdown where the runway cannot be held with full aileron, then immediate increase in power will lead to a successful takeoff.  As yet, I have not found the limit where a go around has been necessary.  Of course, a longer runway is necessary in these situations.

 

[hammdo]

@donkaye, sounds like another great set of training videos:

Mooney x-wind takeoffs and landings!

;o)

I'm ready....

-Don

[ZuluZulu]

Anyone got some tips for a 114 knot crosswind component to 27R?

 

[N201MKTurbo]

4 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

Anyone got some tips for a 114 knot crosswind component to 27R?

 

Land crabbed straight into the wind. Reduce power until you are at zero ground speed over your touchdown point. Slowly reduce power until you touch down at zero ground speed pointed into the wind. 
 

Landing is the easy part. It is very difficult to taxi in those conditions. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by N201MKTurbo

[donkaye]

Sometimes there is an error in the ASOS/AWOS.  That is a hurricane wind and I've never seen one of those in San Diego.  A couple of weeks ago during Thanksgiving I saw 50 knots at 15,000 feet direct crosswind during a Santa Ana condition flying down to Ramona, but it decreased on descent.  If for some reason it were to be true, then even a bad pre-briefing would have shown that.   In any event there is no way a Mooney should be flying if ground conditions were hurricane.

The worst I have ever NOT experienced was ferrying an Acclaim from Santa Barbara to Du Page IL. about 6 years ago where, when the winds were 29G52, I stayed overnight on the other side of the front and waited until the next day for the winds to die down.  It was very bumpy even then, but manageable.  I did have 110 knot tailwind at 19,000 on the way there and was doing over 300 knots over the ground in level flight in smooth conditions.

If the above was a joke showing a false AWOS, then mark me down as naive in responding in a serious manner.

[ZuluZulu]

I’m certain it was an erroneous indication and I posted in jest, but the earnest replies were still very interesting!

[AIREMATT]

One important caveat to the max crosswind you’d land with is which Mooney model you are in. The short body like my 67C has less rudder with it not extending below the horizontal stabilizer. That reduces the rudder size and with a short body also the arm to the rudder. If you want someone else’s limits and procedures from their practices make sure you account for the differences in models if it isn’t the same model as you are flying. Otherwise it is apples and oranges…

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, AIREMATT said:

One important caveat to the max crosswind you’d land with is which Mooney model you are in. The short body like my 67C has less rudder with it not extending below the horizontal stabilizer. That reduces the rudder size and with a short body also the arm to the rudder. If you want someone else’s limits and procedures from their practices make sure you account for the differences in models if it isn’t the same model as you are flying. Otherwise it is apples and oranges…

The method I discussed above will work in any model.  The speeds, of course, will be different for the maximum 15° crab angle.  Also, you need an appropriate runway length.  Short runways and large crosswinds don't work.

[0TreeLemur]

On 12/15/2021 at 6:40 AM, N201MKTurbo said:

Land crabbed straight into the wind. Reduce power until you are at zero ground speed over your touchdown point. Slowly reduce power until you touch down at zero ground speed pointed into the wind. 
 

Landing is the easy part. It is very difficult to taxi in those conditions. 

Yes.

Decades ago I flew my dad and a veterinarian to a distant race track in a C172.  Forecast winds were 20G30, and when we arrived the winds were 30G50.  With an old WWII Triangle airfield configuration, the wind was about 30-degrees off the nose from the left.  Oh, there was ice on the runway.   2nd attempt I got it on the ground, half a mile from the FBO.  The landing roll was about 200'.  The controller told me that I should have a passenger get out and hold the upwind wing down as I taxied.   Poor veterinarian got that job.  Weathervaning was a real problem when I'd hit an icy patch. 

After parking at the FBO my legs were shaking too much for me to get out of the plane for about 10 minutes.

 

[donkaye]

6 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Yes.

Decades ago I flew my dad and a veterinarian to a distant race track in a C172.  Forecast winds were 20G30, and when we arrived the winds were 30G50.  With an old WWII Triangle airfield configuration, the wind was about 30-degrees off the nose from the left.  Oh, there was ice on the runway.   2nd attempt I got it on the ground, half a mile from the FBO.  The landing roll was about 200'.  The controller told me that I should have a passenger get out and hold the upwind wing down as I taxied.   Poor veterinarian got that job.  Weathervaning was a real problem when I'd hit an icy patch. 

After parking at the FBO my legs were shaking too much for me to get out of the plane for about 10 minutes.

 

I got my Commercial License the day before Christmas in 1969.  I belonged to the Flying Country Club at Reid Hillview airport at the time.  They had a number of new Cherokee Airplanes.  Very rarely (I can't remember when we've had it since) we would have a very strong northerly wind strike the East Foothills and comes back as a strong crosswind in the middle of the runway at Reid.  Being a young and over confident new Commercial Pilot I thought that would be a great day to go out and practice crosswind landings.  I thought it strange that no one else was out practicing.  I did the preflight, the runup, and was cleared for takeoff.  The instant I left the ground and the crab was over 45° I knew the reason.  What had I gotten myself into?  Had I known the saying, "It was better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than in the air wishing you were on the ground", I would have said it applied to me that day.  Anyway, when I came around and lined up with the runway, it was clear that I needed the swivel landing gear of a B52, the angle with the runway was that great.   As I went into the flare I pushed the left rudder peddle so hard my leg was shaking uncontrollably.  It didn't make any difference.  I couldn't straighten it enough and went around.  I went around 2 more  times and still couldn't make the landing.  The fourth time, with my leg still shaking from so much pressure on the left rudder, I was able to get it down.  I let the Tower know I was done for the day, and taxied gingerly back to the tie down.  My leg was still shaking as I got out of the plane.  So here we are 52 years later and I still remember vividly that early morning flight that scared some sense and humility into me...

[PT20J]

On 12/17/2021 at 12:21 AM, donkaye said:

I got my Commercial License the day before Christmas in 1969.  I belonged to the Flying Country Club at Reid Hillview airport at the time.  They had a number of new Cherokee Airplanes.  Very rarely (I can't remember when we've had it since) we would have a very strong northerly wind strike the East Foothills and comes back as a strong crosswind in the middle of the runway at Reid.  Being a young and over confident new Commercial Pilot I thought that would be a great day to go out and practice crosswind landings.  I thought it strange that no one else was out practicing.  I did the preflight, the runup, and was cleared for takeoff.  The instant I left the ground and the crab was over 45° I knew the reason.  What had I gotten myself into?  Had I known the saying, "It was better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than in the air wishing you were on the ground", I would have said it applied to me that day.  Anyway, when I came around and lined up with the runway, it was clear that I needed the swivel landing gear of a B52, the angle with the runway was that great.   As I went into the flare I pushed the left rudder peddle so hard my leg was shaking uncontrollably.  It didn't make any difference.  I couldn't straighten it enough and went around.  I went around 2 more  times and still couldn't make the landing.  The fourth time, with my leg still shaking from so much pressure on the left rudder, I was able to get it down.  I let the Tower know I was done for the day, and taxied gingerly back to the tie down.  My leg was still shaking as I got out of the plane.  So here we are 52 years later and I still remember vividly that early morning flight that scared some sense and humility into me...

Brings back memories. I rented a 1978 M20J from Pacific Piper in the mid-80s where I also instructed for a time. The plane was sold and I started renting from FCC that had 2 Js and a K as I recall. The sale  on the Pacific Piper plane fell through and I ended up buying it.

Also flew aerobatics in Decathlons and Citabrias at Amelia Reid around that time. Checkout with Amelia was fun, she nodded off during every maneuver. Good times.

[Mooney-Shiner]

Not to hijack the thread, but is there a defined crosswind component max for Mooney? 

My 67F Mooney came with a rather skinny booklet of POH, which doesn't mention the max crosswind component.  My CFI keeps asking me about it, and I keep feeling silly since I don't have a good reference.  

[jaylw314]

25 minutes ago, ukrsindicat@yahoo.com said:

Not to hijack the thread, but is there a defined crosswind component max for Mooney? 

My 67F Mooney came with a rather skinny booklet of POH, which doesn't mention the max crosswind component.  My CFI keeps asking me about it, and I keep feeling silly since I don't have a good reference.  

I don't believe so, IIRC most models just mention something like max "demonstrated" crosswind component was 11 knots, but it's not a limitation in any model AFAIK

[midlifeflyer]

47 minutes ago, ukrsindicat@yahoo.com said:

Not to hijack the thread, but is there a defined crosswind component max for Mooney? 

My 67F Mooney came with a rather skinny booklet of POH, which doesn't mention the max crosswind component.  My CFI keeps asking me about it, and I keep feeling silly since I don't have a good reference.  

A lot of aircraft originally certified under CAR 3 don't have a published "maximum demonstrated crosswind component."  Ultimately, it's not a limitation anyway, and I've always though it to be a bit artificial, but it's nice to have a guideline. The J's published demonstrated component is 11 (which is surprisingly low for a single) but it's as good a guideline as any to start with. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by midlifeflyer

[donkaye]

45 minutes ago, ukrsindicat@yahoo.com said:

Not to hijack the thread, but is there a defined crosswind component max for Mooney? 

My 67F Mooney came with a rather skinny booklet of POH, which doesn't mention the max crosswind component.  My CFI keeps asking me about it, and I keep feeling silly since I don't have a good reference.  

No Mooney that I know of has a published maximum crosswind component specified in the POH.  Most have a "Maximum DEMONSTRATED crosswind component specified in the POH.

[midlifeflyer]

BTW, a 2013 issue of Mooney Flyer has an interesting article o the subject of crosswinds.

[Mooney-Shiner]

21 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

The J's published demonstrated component is 11 (which is surprisingly low for a single) but it's as good a guideline as any to start with. 

Yep! The small Sky Catcher has crosswind component of 13 knots in its POH

[PT20J]

The certification requirement, I believe, is 0.2 Vso min.

Former Mooney test pilot Bob Kromer told me that Mooney was purposely very conservative in setting demonstrated crosswind velocities because of the tendency to float and concerns about “average” pilots who might be landing a bit too fast. He shared  his personal max was 18 kts @ 90 deg when he was flying daily and really sharp. 

Skip

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

The certification requirement, I believe, is 0.2 Vso min.

Former Mooney test pilot Bob Kromer told me that Mooney was purposely very conservative in setting demonstrated crosswind velocities because of the tendency to float and concerns about “average” pilots who might be landing a bit too fast. He shared  his personal max was 18 kts @ 90 deg when he was flying daily and really sharp. 

Skip

Yes, the "old" Part 23 requirement was that the airplane needed to be able to handle at least a 0.2 Vso crosswind. Pretty sure the regulation didn't apply to anything before the J. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by midlifeflyer

[Ragsf15e]

7 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

BTW, a 2013 issue of Mooney Flyer has an interesting article o the subject of crosswinds.

Good read, thanks!

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

Yes, the "old" Part 23 requirement was that the airplane needed to be able to handle at least a 0.2 Vso crosswind. Pretty sure the regulation didn't apply to anything before the J. 

Actually, the certification basis for all the M20 series is CAR 3, so Part 23 wouldn’t apply. But CAR 3 had essentially the same requirement.

[midlifeflyer]

8 hours ago, PT20J said:

Actually, the certification basis for all the M20 series is CAR 3, so Part 23 wouldn’t apply. But CAR 3 had essentially the same requirement.

Excellent find! Do you have a good source for the CARs?

[exM20K]

17 hours ago, ukrsindicat@yahoo.com said:

Yep! The small Sky Catcher has crosswind component of 13 knots in its POH

If I recall correctly, that failed experiment also has a maximum wind limit in the low 20’s knots.  
 

For me, max crosswind is whatever x wind leaves me enough rudder to get the nose strait-ish.  The wind recorded by the weather station and the wind you are flying in at the flare are often very different, and only the latter is meaningful.

-dan

[PT20J]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Excellent find! Do you have a good source for the CARs?

I found this one with Google a while back.

CAR-PART 03.PDF