Thoughts on Mooney M20F Exec 201 Project

[MooneyPitts]

Good day all,

With the increase in Mooney prices, I am thinking about getting the first Mooney that I flew as a child in a discovery flight. It will be a complete nose to tail project, but when finished it will all be new. I would like to get the thoughts of others before I pull the trigger on this idea.

[Steve Dawson]

It would be cheaper and less money in the long run to just buy a J now and fix it up as you go. And your resale value would be higher and there would be more interested buyers when you want to sell it.

[MikeOH]

Do you want to buy a plane to work on, or to fly?

[MooneyPitts]

The plane comes with a hanger and I was running through the numbers. I have friends that are mechanics that could work with me on the job. I also have a military flight club that I can use to fly now while working on the project. I will look into the model J. I looked on the normal sites for planes and there doesn't seem to be a lot out there. That's why I asked here in the forum. 

[DCarlton]

28 minutes ago, MooneyPitts said:

The plane comes with a hanger and I was running through the numbers. I have friends that are mechanics that could work with me on the job. I also have a military flight club that I can use to fly now while working on the project. I will look into the model J. I looked on the normal sites for planes and there doesn't seem to be a lot out there. That's why I asked here in the forum. 

Decent J's are very hard to find right now and they are $30-40K more than they were a year ago.  Ready to fly F's appear to be in the $70-80K range.  I fly a '67F with all the speed mods.  Although folks seem to like the '65-67s, I might consider a later year; one with an instrument panel that's a little easier to upgrade.  If I were starting over though, I would start with a J. 

[Shadrach]

18 hours ago, MooneyPitts said:

The plane comes with a hanger and I was running through the numbers. I have friends that are mechanics that could work with me on the job. I also have a military flight club that I can use to fly now while working on the project. I will look into the model J. I looked on the normal sites for planes and there doesn't seem to be a lot out there. That's why I asked here in the forum. 

Depends on the F, depends on the price and depends on your expertise.  There are some preferable attributes found in the older Fs. If I were choosing a one to upgrade, it would be the aforementioned 65-67 range with manual gear/flaps. John Breda did this to an extreme level and created one of the most desirable Mooneys I’ve ever seen. It would not sell for what it cost to build but he spared no expense.  I see no reason for the current market to correct until the economy corrects. No one is building more Mooneys. No one is building airplanes in this class in sufficient quantity to replace the ones that are destroyed annually (cirrus sold 56 SR20s in 2020 out of  347 piston/recip sales). 
 

You also might consider just flying the F as it is. If price is a top priority. The speed differences are often overstated. I would bet that the difference in block speed between two good examples to be well under 10kts,   The 201 looks more modern for sure. My F often has a 100lb useful load advantage on  the Js I see, sometimes closer to 200lbs.  Upgrades to my panel will likely improve that delta.  Prioritize your needs before moving forward. It’s not a good idea to settle for something you don’t really want. At the end of the day, often the best course of action is to buy the best version of what you want that you can afford. It will almost always be cheaper than a project.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Shadrach

[Guest]

5 hours ago, MooneyPitts said:

The plane comes with a hanger and I was running through the numbers. I have friends that are mechanics that could work with me on the job. I also have a military flight club that I can use to fly now while working on the project. I will look into the model J. I looked on the normal sites for planes and there doesn't seem to be a lot out there. That's why I asked here in the forum. 

First off inspect it carefully before committing to the project, it still needs a PPI. 

If you have the skills to do the work and help with signing off your work as you go, I’d say go for it.  Compare the price of the plane to what a kit from Vans Aircraft cost these days and how long they take to build.  

At the rate planes are being written off these days, there will be a market for this one.

The included hangar is a nice bonus.

Clarence

 

 

[1964-M20E]

as Doc said make sure you know what you are getting to and enjoy the ride.  I like to see someone tackle an under used, neglected plane and bring it back to life.  If you have them post some photos it always helps with the advice.

[ArtVandelay]

  The 201 looks more modern for sure. My F often has a 100lb useful load advantage on  the Js I see, sometimes closer to 200lbs.  Upgrades to my panel will likely improve that delta.  

Most Fs come in around 1050, most earlier Js as delivered 1000…but they started packing on wing tips, gap seals, backup electric vacuum pump, KNS80, WX10, etc..they dropped to 950 or less. They increased the MGW but added stronger frame parts to get it…so the UL still was around 1000.

I don’t see how you can get anywhere near 200 unless they added O2 tank, dual batteries, or some other heavy mod.

Im almost a 1000 UL and should gain another 15-20lbs after next upgrade, it was below 900 at one point.

[Shadrach]

13 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Most Fs come in around 1050, most earlier Js as delivered 1000…but they started packing on wing tips, gap seals, backup electric vacuum pump, KNS80, WX10, etc..they dropped to 950 or less. They increased the MGW but added stronger frame parts to get it…so the UL still was around 1000.

I don’t see how you can get anywhere near 200 unless they added O2 tank, dual batteries, or some other heavy mod.

Im almost a 1000 UL and should gain another 15-20lbs after next upgrade, it was below 900 at one point.

I'm referring to the 2740lb birds only.  I have flown in a J with the MGW increase at near gross and it can handle it but it's a lot to ask of the little Lyc especially on a hot day.  I think your estimation of the F average UL is slightly generous your estimation of the J even more so.  There are outliers for sure (mine qualifies at 1060UL) but I think the delta is closer to 70 to 100 between the two models and many of the older birds could be made lighter with upgrades (mine could drop 20lbs without much trouble...just$$$). 

With regard to not seeing how I "get anywhere near 200lbs", you've answered your own question. Your bird was once below 900lbs. At 1060UL, my bird had +160UL on yours.  When I swap my generator and dump the remote compass, I'll have be at +170UL.  Scanning the thread linked below there are significant differences among the same models.  That being said, there are some chubster Js that are south of 900 just as there are a few lean ones with over 1000, the mean seems to be somewhere between 920 and 960.  In my experience I have ~130UL on most J models. Is it a lot? Depends on your viewpoint. It's certainly worth considering. I can get my wife, her suitcase and a day bag in the plane before hitting 900lbs remaining as currently configured.   

The reality is my F will carry 190lbs per seat (4) ~600NM with an hour of reserve.   Practically speaking that means I can fly nonstop from my base to any state on the eastern seaboard  with four FAA adults and 20lbs of bags for each. Are there other Mooneys that will do that?  Likely a few, but I don't think it's the norm…nor need it be, most folks don't travel that way. However, for a family of four, it's hard to beat.

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Shadrach

[Guest]

Fanciful mathematics, or real numbers from a set of scales?

Clarence

[Shadrach]

8 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Fanciful mathematics, or real numbers from a set of scales?

Clarence

Mathematics are not fanciful (well perhaps they can be at the abstract levels above my pay grade). Indeed in this case, mathematics are an applied science.  I have the original factory W&B from when this airplane was purchased new and every revision thereafter.  Would the scales match the paper work?  Likely not to the pound. Who cares?  There is no regulatory need to weigh the airframe if the calculations are in order (which they are). Furthermore, given how it climbs (in spite of needing the governor adjusted up about 30rpm), I see no evidence that the weight is understated.  The only reason to weight it would be to prove to the internet what it weighs. That would be a lousy ROI.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Shadrach

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Mathematics are not fanciful (well perhaps they can be at the abstract levels above my pay grade). Indeed in this case, mathematics are an applied science.  I have the original factory W&B from when this airplane was purchased new and every revision thereafter.  Would the scales match the paper work?  Likely not to the pound. Who cares?  There is no regulatory need to weigh the airframe if the calculations are in order (which they are). Furthermore, given how it climbs (in spite of needing the governor adjusted up about 30rpm), I see no evidence that the UL is overstated.  The only reason to weight it would be to prove to the internet what it weighs. That would be a lousy ROI.

 

 

Very often here I read people saying to never re-weigh their airplane lest the real numbers come to light.  At the same time others lament how poor many maintainers are at calculating a weight and balance amendment.  Yours may be an exception in that you can trace your weight back to birth, others are not as fortunate.

Clarence

[tony]

On 11/14/2021 at 10:40 PM, MooneyPitts said:

Good day all,

With the increase in Mooney prices, I am thinking about getting the first Mooney that I flew as a child in a discovery flight. It will be a complete nose to tail project, but when finished it will all be new. I would like to get the thoughts of others before I pull the trigger on this idea.

If you're looking for the math to justify the decision, it never will.  The math says we should never own an airplane, we should rent.  This is strictly an emotional decision.  

[DCarlton]

On 11/15/2021 at 9:16 AM, Shadrach said:

I'm referring to the 2740lb birds only.  I have flown in a J with the MGW increase at near gross and it can handle it but it's a lot to ask of the little Lyc especially on a hot day.  I think your estimation of the F average UL is slightly generous your estimation of the J even more so.  There are outliers for sure (mine qualifies at 1060UL) but I think the delta is closer to 70 to 100 between the two models and many of the older birds could be made lighter with upgrades (mine could drop 20lbs without much trouble...just$$$). 

With regard to not seeing how I "get anywhere near 200lbs", you've answered your own question. Your bird was once below 900lbs. At 1060UL, my bird had +160UL on yours.  When I swap my generator and dump the remote compass, I'll have be at +170UL.  Scanning the thread linked below there are significant differences among the same models.  That being said, there are some chubster Js that are south of 900 just as there are a few lean ones with over 1000, the mean seems to be somewhere between 920 and 960.  In my experience I have ~130UL on most J models. Is it a lot? Depends on your viewpoint. It's certainly worth considering. I can get my wife, her suitcase and a day bag in the plane before hitting 900lbs remaining as currently configured.   

The reality is my F will carry 190lbs per seat (4) ~600NM with an hour of reserve.   Practically speaking that means I can fly nonstop from my base to any state on the eastern seaboard  with four FAA adults and 20lbs of bags for each. Are there other Mooneys that will do that?  Likely a few, but I don't think it's the norm…nor need it be, most folks don't travel that way. However, for a family of four, it's hard to beat.

 

Getting off topic, but I'm curious, for the folks that really focus on useful load down to the lb, are you running a two blade or three blade prop?  I put a three blade on mine when I bought a new prop and like it but wonder now if that wasn't the wisest choice.  I'm actually thinking about getting my plane reweighed in order to deep archive all the old W&B information and start fresh.  

Edited November 26, 2021 by DCarlton
spell correction

[Shadrach]

16 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

Getting off topic, but I'm curious, for the folks that really focus on useful load down to the lb, are you running a two blade or three blade prop?  I put a three blade on mine when I bought a new prop and like it but wonder now if that wasn't the wisest choice.  I'm actually thinking about getting my plane reweighed in order to deep achieve all the old W&B information and start fresh.  

I’m running the hartzell 2 blade that the plane was delivered with in 67. It’s currently on its 3rd overhaul. My plane came from the factory with 1065lbsUL, it’s currently 1057.88lbs. I am actually not that UL focused. If I was, I’d have ditched my generator, remote compass and traded my Hatzell for an MT. Just those 3 mods would put it well north of 1070lbs.

In actuality, the nice thing about my bird is that I don’t need to focus heavily on UL. Under most circumstances I have plenty of margin. I did not feel that way with many of the other planes I flew prior.