Mooney crash near PUJ

[laytonl]

It appears an M20F crashed today near the Paulding County (kpuj) airport west of Atlanta.  The news is reporting one fatality, but no other information.  

https://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-single-engine-plane-crashes-in-paulding/GEREHUN37ND2HIHT4GGQZIFQV4/

Lee

[laytonl]

Just speculating, but it may have been this airplane.  Closer to 20ga than Kpuj though.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N3284F/history/20211108/1754Z/20GA/L 33.79935 -84.91070

 

lee

[Rick Junkin]

26 minutes ago, laytonl said:

It appears an M20F crashed today near the Paulding County (kpuj) airport west of Atlanta.

Thanks Lee, any additional information you can pass on will help us contact the family. @mike_elliott

[DCarlton]

It's starting to feel like there's a Mooney down almost monthly.  Does anyone have a spreadsheet or summary by month, year, etc?  There's been 3-4 the last few months.  

[DCarlton]

Found the database.  23 Mooney accidents this year.  16 fatalities.  I had no idea there were 2-3 a month. 

[Parker_Woodruff]

I don't know what the cause of this crash is, but we need to start having a discussion about maintenance.  The amount of people I've turned down providing flight instruction to in recent history is more than I'd like to say.  I went into the plural (over a 3-4 month period) of how many I elected not to fly with due to maintenance concerns who then had catastrophic engine failures shortly thereafter.

CFIs do enough getting in planes with pilots they don't know.  At least *try* (with your efforts, including your wallet) to give us some good equipment.

If the seller of a plane is ok with an MSC prebuy but insists that *his mechanic* make the repairs instead of the MSC, you should probably walk from the plane.

Sorry to be salty this Tuesday morning.  I fly for fun...not for the surprises...

[Browncbr1]

47 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

I don't know what the cause of this crash is, but we need to start having a discussion about maintenance.  The amount of people I've turned down providing flight instruction to in recent history is more than I'd like to say.  I went into the plural (over a 3-4 month period) of how many I elected not to fly with due to maintenance concerns who then had catastrophic engine failures shortly thereafter.

CFIs do enough getting in planes with pilots they don't know.  At least *try* (with your efforts, including your wallet) to give us some good equipment.

If the seller of a plane is ok with an MSC prebuy but insists that *his mechanic* make the repairs instead of the MSC, you should probably walk from the plane.

Sorry to be salty this Tuesday morning.  I fly for fun...not for the surprises...

yea, i had to discontinue instruction in a mooney once... chts all around 430... climb only 2-300fpm, engine roughness and coughing,...   got back on the ground and told him that he should not fly it until it is looked at..      instead, he flew it in mvfr 2.5 hours home over rural mountainous forests..     my eye balls were popping out when i saw the flightaware   ..

Edited November 9, 2021 by Browncbr1

[201er]

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/11/mooney-m20f-executive-21-fatal-accident.html

[MooneyMitch]

N3284F, owner/pilot  Raymond Hicks.

Condolences to remaining family loved ones.

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/11/mooney-m20f-executive-21-fatal-accident.html

The audio of that crash is certainly sickening.  We track these accidents to learn from them, pilot error is often the cause, and we all feel like we can better maintain, train and not be a statistic.. but I've gotta say the frequency of GA and Mooney accidents is giving me second thoughts about continuing to fly.  I can deal with hurting myself but the thought of hurting someone else has always haunted me.   And I say this after over 30 years of flying.  Is it just me?  

Edited November 9, 2021 by DCarlton

[MooneyMitch]

17 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

And I say this after over 30 years of flying.  Is it just me?  

No.

[201er]

14 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

I think someone said pilots always overestimate the survivability of off airport landings.  Looks like rugged wooded terrain.

That does not look like a landing!

[Skates97]

3 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

I don't know what the cause of this crash is, but we need to start having a discussion about maintenance.  The amount of people I've turned down providing flight instruction to in recent history is more than I'd like to say.  I went into the plural (over a 3-4 month period) of how many I elected not to fly with due to maintenance concerns who then had catastrophic engine failures shortly thereafter.

CFIs do enough getting in planes with pilots they don't know.  At least *try* (with your efforts, including your wallet) to give us some good equipment.

If the seller of a plane is ok with an MSC prebuy but insists that *his mechanic* make the repairs instead of the MSC, you should probably walk from the plane.

Sorry to be salty this Tuesday morning.  I fly for fun...not for the surprises...

When I went for my IFR checkride we got to the plane and the DPE said, "You go ahead and do your pre-flight on the plane, I'm going to do mine." He said he has had some planes show up that he would not get into.

[neilpilot]

41 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

The audio of that crash is certainly sickening.  We track these accidents to learn from them, pilot error is often the cause, and we all feel like we can better maintain, train and not be a statistic.. but I've gotta say the frequency of GA and Mooney accidents is giving me second thoughts about continuing to fly.  I can deal with hurting myself but the thought of hurting someone else has always haunted me.   And I say this after over 30 years of flying.  Is it just me?  

Bought a 64E in 1989, and it was totaled in 2012 during an off-field landing.  Engine out due to a mechanical failure resulting in fuel starvation.  No serious injuries.   Replaced it with a 65C, and after about 2400 M20 hours decided to quit GA in 2019.  Factors included aging and the fact that I'd experienced a total of 4 engine failures due to mechanical factors in my flying career. 

[ilovecornfields]

2 minutes ago, neilpilot said:

Bought a 64E in 1989, and it was totaled in 2012 during an off-field landing.  Engine out due to a mechanical failure resulting in fuel starvation.  No serious injuries.   Replaced it with a 65C, and after about 2400 M20 hours decided to quit GA in 2019.  Factors included aging and the fact that I'd experienced a total of 4 engine failures due to mechanical factors in my flying career. 

What caused the four engine failures? Were they all sudden and catastrophic? In hindsight, was there anything that you now realize suggested something was wrong?

[Pasturepilot]

This one hit real close to home. Last year, I brought my buddy's F back from Arizona after he bought it - one digit off from this one's registration number. Also just helped a different friend buy an F model that's based at PUJ - He literally just finished off his insurance requirements and was taking his family for their first Mooney rides this weekend. 

Staying tuned for developments on this one for sure. 

[KB4]

46 minutes ago, JohnZ said:

How does the accident rate within the Mooney community compare to the accident rates in other light single-engine airfames (i.e. Cessna, Beechcraft, Piper)? Are the accident statistics pointing towards a lack of safety culture? Poor risk management? Mechanical failures? Something Mooney-specific? As a community do we have concerns for the structural integrity of the aging fleet? Some questions here that might be hard to answer with tangible data and factual information. I don't usually get into the weeds with what caused which accident. I think that it is important to be confident in the airworthiness of ones airplane when well-maintained and not be scared of flying it. 

Mooney has MAPA, dedicated improving safety and also maintenance is also discussed. Do other manufacturers? I haven’t checked.
 

These M20’s are built in America like a brick sh!t house and don’t ever just fall out of the sky.  And if flown to the ground, with something other than obstructions, trees, water etc below you can expect Dan Bass type damage.  Old data but at about 300 Mooney hours the accident rate drops off a cliff. Until about 300 rate of M20 accidents rose, but was same as other manufacturers.  At about 400 M20 pilots statistically began to outperform other manufacturers pilots. 

[neilpilot]

1 hour ago, ilovecornfields said:

What caused the four engine failures? Were they all sudden and catastrophic? In hindsight, was there anything that you now realize suggested something was wrong?

1st:  C152, with under 200 hr on the airframe/engine, sucked a valve on takeoff.  Was able to limp back around and land.

2nd: (Maintenance Induced Failure) M20E - A&P failed to tighten rocker arm keepers on 2 cylinders when satisfying emergency AD re:Superior Air Parts crankshaft bolt inspection.  Around 3 hours after inspection, #3 cylinder rocker arm came loose and collided with cylinder head cover.  Had sufficient altitude to land at a nearby airport.

3rd:  M20E - Cylinder cracked at spark plug - I was relatively low, but had just overflown KMEM enroute from KAWM to KOLV, so was able to turn back and land at KMEM.

4th:  Maintenance Induced? M20E - seems an o-ring was pinched when fuel injection was assembled.  A small loose piece floated around and eventually blocked all fuel flow.  Almost made it to a runway, but I decided right-side up in soybeans was better than UWOF.  https://www.accidents.app/summaries/accident/20120721X23053

[DCarlton]

2 hours ago, neilpilot said:

Bought a 64E in 1989, and it was totaled in 2012 during an off-field landing.  Engine out due to a mechanical failure resulting in fuel starvation.  No serious injuries.   Replaced it with a 65C, and after about 2400 M20 hours decided to quit GA in 2019.  Factors included aging and the fact that I'd experienced a total of 4 engine failures due to mechanical factors in my flying career. 

I've had two emergencies, both with the same engine (not the one I'm flying now).  The first was a wake up call.  Fortunately I wasn't too far from my home airport.  Engine started running rough, by the time I was back to the airport and downwind, I had no manifold pressure (dead stick).  Used the entire 5000' runway but landed safely.  The engine I have now has less than 100 hours on it, runs like a top and is highly cherished.  Another emergency and I'd probably call it quits.  

[aviatoreb]

36 minutes ago, KB4 said:

Mooney has MAPA, dedicated improving safety and also maintenance is also discussed. Do other manufacturers? I haven’t checked.
 

These M20’s are built in America like a brick sh!t house and don’t ever just fall out of the sky.  And if flown to the ground, with something other than obstructions, trees, water etc below you can expect Dan Bass type damage.  Old data but at about 300 Mooney hours the accident rate drops off a cliff. Until about 300 rate of M20 accidents rose, but was same as other manufacturers.  At about 400 M20 pilots statistically began to outperform other manufacturers pilots. 

I haven't seen or heard of that study.  Do you remember enough detail that we might find it with good google searching?  I would love to see it.

[aviatoreb]

Oh that sound was awful.  I can't unheard that.  RIP.

[KB4]

9 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I haven't seen or heard of that study.  Do you remember enough detail that we might find it with good google searching?  I would love to see it.

It’s all published in the MAPA Pilot Proficiency Program materials.  Graph I referred to is 7-3.  

[aviatoreb]

Just now, KB4 said:

It’s all published in the MAPA Pilot Proficiency Program materials.  Graph I referred to is 7-3.  

I see.  I don’t have those materials.  Would it be out of sorts to post just that figure here?  I wouldn’t want to step on any proprietary collections of the mapa group.  Or did they republish and cite some other primary study?  If so what is the citation?

Thanks

[bmcconnaha]

As long as airplanes have been flying, they have been crashing.  Hurts me to see any airplane crash with a fatality, but really hurts to see another mooney.  FWIW I have very few concerns with the structural integrity of our airplanes.  What I can say, is proper maintenance, good preflights (both weather, and airplane), observing the proper air speeds for the maneuver being performed (at both ends of the spectrum) and practicing stall avoidance go a long way to reducing accidents. 

[KB4]

3 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I see.  I don’t have those materials.  Would it be out of sorts to post just that figure here?  I wouldn’t want to step on any proprietary collections of the mapa group.  Or did they republish and cite some other primary study?  If so what is the citation?

Thanks

Cited as FAA Office of Mgt systems hours flown versus accidents. Not my material to post. It says “need consent to reproduce”