Traffic Pattern Conflict With Warrior

[Hank]

17 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

If you fly to other countries, procedures are different.  In Canada, straight entries to the down wind leg(no 45 entries) or from the upwind side overhead the field for a mid down wing entry.

Clarence

Those happen here, too. I think the first is what Mikey was doing, he just gave it the wrong name.

[201er]

49 minutes ago, Hank said:

Those happen here, too. I think the first is what Mikey was doing, he just gave it the wrong name.

And pray tell what the correct name is when you enter straight in downwind from far out?

[RobertGary1]

Not sure the point of this post. This just happens all the time. Have to keep a lookout for people and not rely on a radio 

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

If you fly to other countries, procedures are different.  In Canada, straight entries to the down wind leg(no 45 entries) or from the upwind side overhead the field for a mid down wing entry.

Clarence

Following reading your post Clarence, I was a little confused by the second version of entry, so I looked this up.  And it is in the picture - but I see in this accounting, in blue it also has a 45 degree entry.  Is that right?

https://tc.canada.ca/sites/default/files/migrated/tp11541e.pdf

[midlifeflyer]

57 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

the upwind side overhead the field for a mid down wing (should be down wind) entry.

57 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Following reading your post Clarence, I was a little confused by the second version of entry

That's the midfield crosswind to downwind (not the teardrop) which has probably been standard in Canada forever. It has been in use in the US for a long time (I learned in when I started training in 1990) but finally achieved FAA recognition only 4-5 years ago. 

 

57 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

but I see in this accounting, in blue it also has a 45 degree entry.  Is that right?

Yes but if I am reading it correctly, that's not for self-announce nontowered fields. The green arrows are the standard self-announce entrees. The blue depict something you might receive as an instruction. (The "mandatory frequency (MF) or aerodrome traffic frequency (ATF) area" mentioned in the blue box.

Edited November 15, 2021 by midlifeflyer

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, 201er said:

And pray tell what the correct name is when you enter straight in downwind from far out?

probably just that?

If I heard you say "entering the downwind," I'd assume you're doing the standard entry on the 45.

Around here, I'll occasionally hear some tower controllers give instructions to "make a straight-in entry to left downwind 34", but I'm guessing that's not standard phraseology.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Following reading your post Clarence, I was a little confused by the second version of entry, so I looked this up.  And it is in the picture - but I see in this accounting, in blue it also has a 45 degree entry.  Is that right?

https://tc.canada.ca/sites/default/files/migrated/tp11541e.pdf

A number of airports have an FSS operator either on field in the old control tower as in CYSN, St. Catherine’s or working through a remote communication as in CYQA.  You contact them, they report current traffic conditions, you may join the pattern following the blue procedures or overhead for a mid field downwind entry or a straight in downwind entry, you simply state your intentions giving way to traffic already established in the pattern.  In the case of St. Catherine’s I guess that could be on a different runway as long as you’re giving right of way to already established traffic.

Perhaps @ohdub will chime in

Clarence

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

Those happen here, too. I think the first is what Mikey was doing, he just gave it the wrong name.

Would that make his a premature entry to the straight downwind leg?

Clarence

[wishboneash]

Wow, I can see some confusion with this "extended downwind" terminology. Perhaps, in this situation, landing Rwy 27 left pattern, saying you are 2 miles west of the field entering downwind will clarify the situation as opposed to being 2 miles on an extended downwind to the east. Better yet, at a busy airport it's best to avoid the downwind entry and do the standard 45 entry. At Watsonwille (KWVI), this has happened to me many times and I always fly the 45 entry into this uncontrolled field as it can be extremely busy on a Saturday morning after the fog lifts. Coming from the north to land Rwy 20 (left pattern) can result in some interesting manoeuvres especially with terrain to the north. 

[ohdub]

4 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Following reading your post Clarence, I was a little confused by the second version of entry, so I looked this up.  And it is in the picture - but I see in this accounting, in blue it also has a 45 degree entry.  Is that right?

https://tc.canada.ca/sites/default/files/migrated/tp11541e.pdf

While that diagram is not specific about it, my interpretation would be that the blue arrows would be acceptable entries to the circuit at airports with FSS advisory service. I could be wrong, but I don't know of any Canadian pilot that would consider joining the downwind on a 45 at an airport without a tower or FSS, and I've never heard any instructor mention it as an option for joining the circuit.

Steve

[drapo]

7 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Following reading your post Clarence, I was a little confused by the second version of entry, so I looked this up.  And it is in the picture - but I see in this accounting, in blue it also has a 45 degree entry.  Is that right?

https://tc.canada.ca/sites/default/files/migrated/tp11541e.pdf

Maybe this excerpt from Transport Canada AIM will clear things up:

«For aerodromes not within an MF area: Where no MF procedures are in effect, aircraft should approach the traffic circuit from the upwind side. Alternatively, once the pilot has ascertained without any doubt that there will be no conflict with other traffic entering the circuit or established within it, the pilot may join the circuit on the downwind leg.

(vi) For aerodromes within an MF area when airport advisory information* is available: Aircraft may join the circuit pattern straight-in or at a 45 ̊ angle to the downwind leg or straight-in to the base or final legs . Pilots should be alert both to other VFR traffic entering the circuit at these positions and to IFR straight-in or circling approaches.                                              *(NavCanada Site: At less busy airports, our flight service specialists provide advisory services including information on air traffic in the area, runway conditions, wind and weather information, coordinate airport vehicle operations such as snow removal, and emergency assistance.)

(vii) For aerodromes within an MF area when airport advisory information is not available: Aircraft should normally approach the traffic circuit from the upwind side. Alternatively, once the pilot has ascertained without any doubt that there will be no conflict with other traffic entering the circuit or established within it, the pilot may join the circuit on the downwind leg »

[Hank]

It's rare for me to enter the downwind leg straight in, because it's so easy to deviate away a little bit and join on the 45--it also gives me extra time to level off at TPA and finish slowing down and cranking in Takeoff Flaps.

On the other hand, I've been doing the midfield cross to downwind (turning left to join) since I was a student pilot. The field being short (3000'), I usually crossed near the numbers at the departure end, but when it's 5000' or more I'll actually cross at the middle or slightly toward the departure end. I try to be slowed down with Takeoff Flaps down before then, but sometimes the level turn gets me below Vfe . . . .

[RobertGary1]

8 minutes ago, Hank said:

It's rare for me to enter the downwind leg straight in, because it's so easy to deviate away a little bit and join on the 45--it also gives me extra time to level off at TPA and finish slowing down and cranking in Takeoff Flaps.

On the other hand, I've been doing the midfield cross to downwind (turning left to join) since I was a student pilot. The field being short (3000'), I usually crossed near the numbers at the departure end, but when it's 5000' or more I'll actually cross at the middle or slightly toward the departure end. I try to be slowed down with Takeoff Flaps down before then, but sometimes the level turn gets me below Vfe . . . .

The aim said you should should cross midfield and then turn the opposite direction which basically has your squaring off as a 45 

[Hank]

Just now, RobertGary1 said:

The aim said you should should cross midfield and then turn the opposite direction which basically has your squaring off as a 45 

Cross midfield, then turn right and fly the wrong way on downwind? That's crazy!

[RobertGary1]

4 minutes ago, Hank said:

Cross midfield, then turn right and fly the wrong way on downwind? That's crazy!

Well of course your not crossing midfield at tpa. That would be crazy. You descend to tpa in the 45. 

[Hank]

23 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Well of course your not crossing midfield at tpa. That would be crazy. You descend to tpa in the 45. 

Turning my back on the airport and it's traffic is not appealing, nor is going head-on into traffic approaching on the 45. I cross over at TPA and turn left into the downwind leg. Banking maximizes my visibility to other traffic, especially at night (according to a Cherokee departing 18 while I was turning onto Downwind 36--he was curious about my lights and said he'd have to upgrade his own).

[RobertGary1]

11 minutes ago, Hank said:

Turning my back on the airport and it's traffic is not appealing, nor is going head-on into traffic approaching on the 45. I cross over at TPA and turn left into the downwind leg. Banking maximizes my visibility to other traffic, especially at night (according to a Cherokee departing 18 while I was turning onto Downwind 36--he was curious about my lights and said he'd have to upgrade his own).

All I can say is just stay above tpa. Here is the faa diagram. 
 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

In about 85 I was landing at an uncontrolled field Scottsbluff NE. I reported downwind and base. I saw the Frontier 737 on the opposite direction base with no radio calls. About the time I was going to turn final the 737 finally made a radio call “You better get that plane out of here I’m landing”

[Mooneymite]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

In about 85 I was landing at an uncontrolled field Scottsbluff NE. I reported downwind and base. I saw the Frontier 737 on the opposite direction base with no radio calls. About the time I was going to turn final the 737 finally made a radio call “You better get that plane out of here I’m landing”

Unbelievable!  I've never heard anything like this before.

Jet pilots are extremely aware of the high danger of operating into uncontrolled airports.  Such a remark does not foster a safe and smooth flow of dissimilar aircraft.

Many jets have very poor visibility from the cockpit when turning/maneuvering in the VFR pattern.  Flying the pattern 500' above propeller TPA forces  a descent through the nominal 1000'  TPA and sets the jet up for collision with slower aircraft below.  Now add in the higher ground speeds and the wider/deeper pattern usually flown by jets.....

Personally, I think it prudent to give way to jet traffic regardless of who may have the right of way.  Courtesy and common sense trump the regulations in most cases.

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

Unbelievable!  I've never heard anything like this before.

Jet pilots are extremely aware of the high danger of operating into uncontrolled airports.  Such a remark does not foster a safe and smooth flow of dissimilar aircraft.

Many jets have very poor visibility from the cockpit when turning/maneuvering in the VFR pattern.  Flying the pattern 500' above propeller TPA forces  a descent through the nominal 1000'  TPA and sets the jet up for collision with slower aircraft below.  Now add in the higher ground speeds and the wider/deeper pattern usually flown by jets.....

Personally, I think it prudent to give way to jet traffic regardless of who may have the right of way.  Courtesy and common sense trump the regulations in most cases.

 

 

It still makes me mad when I think about it. Frontier (the old one) was going bankrupt and having union issues at the time. That's no excuse for that kind of behavior. If he would have asked nice I would have been happy to let him go first. Making me break off my approach when I'm turning final (or what?) is illegal and rude.

[40_Year_Dream]

10 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

All I can say is just stay above tpa. Here is the faa diagram. 
 

 

Interesting: - this is exactly what I tried to do (except maybe not quite 2 miles from the pattern ) and got gigged on my 1st try at a checkride by the DPE.  Still puzzled by that.

[Mooneymite]

11 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

All I can say is just stay above tpa. Here is the faa diagram. 

Caution:  500" above your TPA is where the jets are supposed to be.

[Hank]

11 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

All I can say is just stay above tpa. Here is the faa diagram. 
 

 

Flying 2 miles away then turning back to enter the pattern is not a pattern entry--the entry happens after a lot of flying away, turning around and flying back.

[Hank]

14 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

All I can say is just stay above tpa. Here is the faa diagram. 
 

 

Looks like you prefer the left side of this picture, overfly the airport well above the pattern, fly away, descend, turn around, come back then enter the pattern.

I prefer the right side of this picture, which I have just now had time to look up during lunch. You may want to download a more recent version . . . . It works well at most uncontrolled airports that are not busy; if the pattern is busy, then I'll deviate around and enter downwind on a 45, but without flying two miles away, descending, turning around and coming back--just kick the nose [in this picture] a few degrees right. Note that for the midfield downwind entry, it does say to "yield to the preferred 45º and downwind traffic."

[RobertGary1]

28 minutes ago, Hank said:

Looks like you prefer the left side of this picture, overfly the airport well above the pattern, fly away, descend, turn around, come back then enter the pattern.

I prefer the right side of this picture, which I have just now had time to look up during lunch. You may want to download a more recent version . . . . It works well at most uncontrolled airports that are not busy; if the pattern is busy, then I'll deviate around and enter downwind on a 45, but without flying two miles away, descending, turning around and coming back--just kick the nose [in this picture] a few degrees right. Note that for the midfield downwind entry, it does say to "yield to the preferred 45º and downwind traffic."

The picture on the right doesn’t show the faas merge into 45 so I didnt include that. 
the down side of direct jnto downwind is just that you’re picking up your wing and blanking out the 45 traffic. 
 

Flying around the airport for the 45 just takes longer