No engine teardown after prop strike

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

And dialing the crank as well?

Not a required step in the AD.

[1980Mooney]

On 11/2/2021 at 7:33 AM, JWJR said:

Kudos to the owner for being honest and forthright as to the prop strike. Looks like a beautiful plane I’m sure he’ll get it sold.

 

On 11/1/2021 at 6:42 PM, M20Doc said:

The engine does NOT require a complete tear down, it requires compliance with AD 2004-10-14 which forces compliance with SB475C.  Inspection of the crankshaft gear and replacement of the bolt and lock plate.

SB 533 is Lycoming version of prop strike inspection, complete disassembly and inspection.  Most insurance companies will pay for this level of inspection , but it’s legally not required.

Clarence

 

15 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I’ve replaced the oil pump in a J model without removing the engine, so AD compliance is possible on the wing.  I’ve done it on and F model as well.  

Clarence

 

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Yes, in most cases. (response meaning that the work can be done without splitting cases)  Remove the mags, vacuum pump, prop governor then the accessory cover, do the AD and SB 475 gear inspection, bolt and lock plate replacement then reassemble the engine.

Clarence

 

21 hours ago, David Lloyd said:

Since insurance companies will usually cover the cost of addressing the SB, consider what happens if you take advantage of their generosity. .....

 

On 11/1/2021 at 5:02 PM, philip_g said:

Seller updated the listing here. He's increasing price 5k and having the engine torn down and inspected.

I guess it's 135k if you want it and 140k if you want it airworthy? 

So, per M20Doc it sounds like the cost & time to comply with the AD&SB 475 gear inspection, bolt and lock plate replacement on a J is not excessive and can be done in place. Dialing crank not required.  Work can be done without splitting cases. 

• A licensed A&P caused the damage - he could have conducted this inspection on his own time and properly noted it in the Logbooks (i.e. cost to the owner should not have been an issue)
• Others note that insurance pays for it in any event usually (as well as compliance with the SB)
• Yet nothing was done

Now, after all this public discussion on MS, apparently something will be done but at a cost to the new owner (i.e. price increased)

These seem like contradictions in this "honest and forthright" situation. - perhaps there is more to the story.

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by 1980Mooney

[JWJR]

I say honest and forthright because any potential buyer would of not known of the second prop strike unless seller/owner advised him of the incident. He could of said nothing.


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[cliffy]

I find this conversation again interesting as we have , over the years here on MS, ridden this Merry Go Round several times.

The biggest issue in any of these AD vs SB discussions is just READING THE AD.

I have a good friend who is also an IA and he has the same comment to several A&Ps he works with- "just read the AD!"

That cuts out a lot of speculation and confusion.

[1980Mooney]

23 minutes ago, JWJR said:

I say honest and forthright because any potential buyer would of not known of the second prop strike unless seller/owner advised him of the incident. He could of said nothing.

Some planes change hands pretty fast.  Sometimes due to health or other issues the plane winds up with a broker.   The 'original incident owner" won't be around to so kindly inform potential buyers either in the advert or orally.  If it is not properly noted in the Logbooks, then future owners wont have a clue.

How many times have we read stories on MS where a potential buyer, does a Pre-buy inspection only to find evidence of previous repairs to undocumented and unknown damage.  It may or may not impact the purchase - but no-one likes surprises in that situation.  It makes a buyer think "I wonder what else happened that is missing from the record". 

Evidence of a prop strike or sudden stoppage is not easily identifiable in a Pre-buy - not like visual identification of structural repair with new parts, braces, welds, different paint, etc,  In order to be as honest and forthright as possible, it seems to me, that an owner should just do the inspection and log the incident in the Logbooks.

Just my view.

[JWJR]

I think a great feature of Mooney Space is to enhance the knowledge of the owner pilot. ( I’m not sure I understand the round the merry- go round statement)Yes read the AD and also read the SB and know the difference as to what work is required and what is done.Ok now you have valuable knowledge if you should have a prop strike or are a potential buyer of a plane that has had one. One thing to mention is although the AD does not require the crank flange to be dialed I’ve never seen a log book entry that complies with the AD without noting the crank runout results.


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[JWJR]

Some planes change hands pretty fast.  Sometimes due to health or other issues the plane winds up with a broker.   The 'original incident owner" won't be around to so kindly inform potential buyers either in the advert or orally.  If it is not properly noted in the Logbooks, then future owners wont have a clue.
How many times have we read stories on MS where a potential buyer, does a Pre-buy inspection only to find evidence of previous repairs to undocumented and unknown damage.  It may or may not impact the purchase - but no-one likes surprises in that situation.  It makes a buyer think "I wonder what else happened that is missing from the record". 
Evidence of a prop strike or sudden stoppage is not easily identifiable in a Pre-buy - not like visual identification of structural repair with new parts, braces, welds, different paint, etc,  In order to be as honest and forthright as possible, it seems to me, that an owner should just do the inspection and log the incident in the Logbooks.
Just my view.

Yeah I agree that maybe kudos not appropriate for just doing the Right Thing.
It reminds me of when I would thank my employees for just showing up on time.


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[cliffy]

A couple of other thoughts about buying airplanes-

"Most" small airplane owners have more airplane than they can realistically afford which leads to $$$ decisions.

EVERY old used airplane for sale has hidden issues that need to be discovered- every one!

Its extremely rare for an owner to fix everything that is wrong with their airplane   Extremely rare!

Remember many airplanes if not most are now approaching a half century old. 

A buyer is depending on the honesty of every previous owner of that airplane (sometimes to their detriment as is evidenced by numerous 1st year annuals chronicled here on MS)

Repeat after me -  "Caveat Emptor"

Those who forget history are bound to repeat it!  It happens all the time right here on MS  "Merry Go Round" again

Bold statement here from 55 years as an A&P- Most prebuys are done by folks who have no clue on what to look for (especially for Mooneys and Bonanzas)  Check out the ABS Maintenance Seminar video on how to evaluate the condition of a Bonanza. Its eye opening and the only way to really evaluate a Bonanza for sale. We in the Mooney world have nothing to compare  (unless maybe you go to someone like Don Maxwell for the prebuy). Wish we did. The Mooney world SHOULD have maintenance specific seminars on what to look for and how to fix the most vexing problems we share.

A case in point-  How many prebuys have started with and shown that the model and serial numbers of the major components match what is in the log books? Ifs that is not there then the prebuy is useless. 

[EricJ]

6 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Can you do the required AD work without splitting the case?

Don't even need to remove the engine from the airplane according to some who have done it.

[Miami_Mooniac]

On 11/1/2021 at 7:42 PM, M20Doc said:

The engine does NOT require a complete tear down, it requires compliance with AD 2004-10-14 which forces compliance with SB475C.  Inspection of the crankshaft gear and replacement of the bolt and lock plate.

SB 533 is Lycoming version of prop strike inspection, complete disassembly and inspection.  Most insurance companies will pay for this level of inspection , but it’s legally not required.

Clarence

This is an EPIC AND CLEAR description of what applies to ground strikes. Thank you for this Clarence

On 11/2/2021 at 12:02 AM, carusoam said:

 

There are two things that get mentioned… counterbalance weights don’t work right, and hairline cracks…

Ground strikes can be incredibly expensive….

Insurance covers the basics…

What you do after that only has to make sense to your finance administrator… 

Some ground strikes can be turned into upgrades… 

The insurance covers what they cover… a lesson on betterment is helpful for the rest…

There are some things that will come out of the pocket of the new owner..

If you want a zero time engine… this is a great candidate…

again use caution when considering something like this… the overhauler is going to have rules you will need to follow…

You may want to trade this one for a factory OH or reman… see what their rules are…

There may be a small chance the crank can’t be re-used for some reason… know what those chances are before committing…

Well this may be a good opportunity to do these upgrades as spoken very nicely above!

I have just joined the prop strike club under 100 hrs TT and below 30hrs in my first Mooney. Seems like it happened turning off the taxi way at LAL too soon at night and falling onto grass side and skimming some off the prop.

Any advice for the whole procedure..?

maybe it would be a good time to upgrade to 3 blade prop..

Does the prop need to be replaced or overhauled?

Also, engine is about 500 TT and recently completed a top overhaul on jugs after splitting the case for a IRAN about 30 hours ago for reference.. prop was also freshly overhauled at the same time

[cliffy]

With that little damage to the prop (if the blades aren't bent, you don't show enough pictures) then just the AD would probably suffice. Need more pictures to be sure. Did the prop stop suddenly or did it keep turning? Did it dig into the ground? 

Check out the limits required in the propeller  overhaul manual for repairs if you feel capable (by capable I don't mean do the work yourself) or you may be at the mercy of a prop shop as to what is needed.  Not all prop shops are created equal. History is replete with overzealous repair shops just buying new blades rather than trimming to min dimensions   but if yours was already trimmed in the last go around you might be looking at new blades also.

We have a local prop guy here on MS whom might be able to help if you supply pictures to him. 

I have a 3 blade (bought it that way) don't know if I had a 2 blade if I would change.  

3 blade no ADs  3 blade moves the CG fwd  Check this out on your paper work before you do it), both Empty weight CG AND loaded (with only 2 people in the front seats) the way you fly with your weights. Performance doesn't change that much. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by cliffy
add

[Hank]

@Cody Stallings, questions about another ground strike, not a gear up.

[Miami_Mooniac]

47 minutes ago, cliffy said:

With that little damage to the prop (if the blades aren't bent, you don't show enough pictures) then just the AD would probably suffice. Need more pictures to be sure. Did the prop stop suddenly or did it keep turning? Did it dig into the ground? 

Not sure how much it dug into the ground or suddenly stopped,because I didnt even realize it had happened until a week later doing a pre-taxi inspection.

 

49 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Check out the limits required in the propeller  overhaul manual for repairs if you feel capable (by capable I don't mean do the work yourself) or you may be at the mercy of a prop shop as to what is needed.  Not all prop shops are created equal. History is replete with overzealous repair shops just buying new blades rather than trimming to min dimensions   but if yours was already trimmed in the last go around you might be looking at new blades also.

need to look into it, I already called the insurance to make the claim as I was on edge about damage to the crank.. not sure if its the best idea from your first reaction.. I have Avemco and it will be my first claim/incident. I wonder if I should back out of it, or if its too late at this point..

 

51 minutes ago, cliffy said:

I have a 3 blade (bought it that way) don't know if I had a 2 blade if I would change.  

good to know, I did hear it makes more prop noise and not enough evidence if it makes better performance, other than maybe it looking cooler and more sophisticated

 

52 minutes ago, cliffy said:

We have a local prop guy here on MS whom might be able to help if you supply pictures to him.

I will make sure to take more detailed photos for next time.. suggestions would be to check for flatness and getting better angles?

[jaylw314]

IIRC the Hartzell 2-blade (top prop) has no AD's for M20E's, but it does still have a yellow arc.

[redbaron1982]

Just to add to the concerns rewarding the gear up landing of that same airplane, on the log books it describes a annual with some repairs to the skin and LH wing rib due to a "runway incursion". I got FAA records and there is no form 337 for the gear up landing repairs. 

Doesn't that render the aircraft not airworthy?

[carusoam]

Too many un-answered questions…. Makes a pilot uncomfortable…

Runway incursion… runway excursion… runaway plane… pilot running away… 

Ground strikes happen…

Often in unexpected places… taxiing around where planes are supposed to be….

A few notable examples…

1) KOSH in the rain, transitioning from paved surfaces to grass… hole hidden by water…

2) Home drome, taxiing to runway in the dark, fell in a hole in the pavement….

3) Somebody had bumped into a prop with another vehicle…

These are MS examples… not all belong to me…

It really helps to have a good relationship with your mechanic…. This way you don’t have to wonder if he is being straight forward, or not… your plate is full already.

Fortunately we have some good mechanics around here… so you have some background to support your discussions with your mechanic… 

+1 For having Cody around… when it comes to props… he has seen it all…

Missing chunks… is probably more than filing it smooth… so expect a prop shop to be required for a proper fix, if able…

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[Cody Stallings]

11 hours ago, Miami_Mooniac said:

This is an EPIC AND CLEAR description of what applies to ground strikes. Thank you for this Clarence

Well this may be a good opportunity to do these upgrades as spoken very nicely above!

I have just joined the prop strike club under 100 hrs TT and below 30hrs in my first Mooney. Seems like it happened turning off the taxi way at LAL too soon at night and falling onto grass side and skimming some off the prop.

Any advice for the whole procedure..?

maybe it would be a good time to upgrade to 3 blade prop..

Does the prop need to be replaced or overhauled?

Also, engine is about 500 TT and recently completed a top overhaul on jugs after splitting the case for a IRAN about 30 hours ago for reference.. prop was also freshly overhauled at the same time

Unless your just itching to spend $11K on a new prop, I would definitely have that propeller checked out.

If that’s the F7666A-2 Blade you may possibly have the material to O/H that propeller an save yourself $9500.

just my thoughts 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, redbaron1982 said:

Just to add to the concerns rewarding the gear up landing of that same airplane, on the log books it describes a annual with some repairs to the skin and LH wing rib due to a "runway incursion". I got FAA records and there is no form 337 for the gear up landing repairs. 

Doesn't that render the aircraft not airworthy?

No.   If the repairs didn't rise to the level of a "major repair" there would be no need for a 337.    The absence of a 337 and existence of any subsequent annuals would suggest that the airplane was properly airworthy at the time of the annuals.

[Miami_Mooniac]

6 hours ago, Cody Stallings said:

Unless your just itching to spend $11K on a new prop, I would definitely have that propeller checked out.

If that’s the F7666A-2 Blade you may possibly have the material to O/H that propeller an save yourself $9500.

just my thoughts 

Okay,sounds good what about a teardown in general, as per the SB? Seems like insurance would cover it,although not sure if there are worse ramifications for going that route since it would be my first claim/experience..

Or..

Should I check the propeller if it's within limits for O/H and be happy with the AD and replace the bolt and lockplate on the crankshaft and call it a day

[JWJR]

You insurance adjuster and mechanic/shop will go over options with you. Keep in mind your magneto or magnetos should be inspected too. Usually step one is remove the prop- step two dial the crank flange. Anyway work the mechanic and insurance rep as one has to sign it off and the other has to write the check. Hopefully you won’t have to deal with betterment disappointment.


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[Guest]

12 hours ago, Miami_Mooniac said:

Okay,sounds good what about a teardown in general, as per the SB? Seems like insurance would cover it,although not sure if there are worse ramifications for going that route since it would be my first claim/experience..

Or..

Should I check the propeller if it's within limits for O/H and be happy with the AD and replace the bolt and lockplate on the crankshaft and call it a day

The bare minimum requirement is compliance with the AD in the case of your Lycoming.  Continental engines on the other hand have no AD only an SB.

Having said that if it were my engine and the insurance company is going to share in the pain I’d do the full inspection per Lycoming SB533.  Along with that, anything that is bolted to the engine and spins is suspect.  The manufacturers of your propeller governor, your magnetos, your vacuum pump all have service bulletins covering their products.

Clarence

[shawnd]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

The bare minimum requirement is compliance with the AD in the case of your Lycoming.  Continental engines on the other hand have no AD only an SB.

Having said that if it were my engine and the insurance company is going to share in the pain I’d do the full inspection per Lycoming SB533.  Along with that, anything that is bolted to the engine and spins is suspect.  The manufacturers of your propeller governor, your magnetos, your vacuum pump all have service bulletins covering their products.

Clarence

If there was a "reaction" button for +100, this post would be it. At the end of the day, if insurance is helping with costs, go ahead and do it! Then enjoy knowing the fact that your powerplant is going to perform as expected when you are in the flight levels and especially if you are in IMC. Pick reputable folks or shops to do the work is probably the next recommendation.

[RoundTwo]

3 minutes ago, shawnd said:

If there was a "reaction" button for +100, this post would be it. At the end of the day, if insurance is helping with costs, go ahead and do it! Then enjoy knowing the fact that your powerplant is going to perform as expected when you are in the flight levels and especially if you are in IMC. Pick reputable folks or shops to do the work is probably the next recommendation.

I have to believe that as an insured, having two claims would have repercussions with the insurance company. GU January 2020 and prop strike July 2021 doesn’t look good for risk analysis. 
R2

[laytonl]

In 1969 I was 14 year old kid working at the local airport when a transient Taylorcraft ground looped and nosed over.   The only damage was a bent prop.  The FBO owner/mechanic/instructor had me take the prop off and we put it in a press, straightened the prop and re-installed.  The guy flew home a couple hours after the prop strike.  Times have changed.  Lee

[cliffy]

22 hours ago, laytonl said:

In 1969 I was 14 year old kid working at the local airport when a transient Taylorcraft ground looped and nosed over.   The only damage was a bent prop.  The FBO owner/mechanic/instructor had me take the prop off and we put it in a press, straightened the prop and re-installed.  The guy flew home a couple hours after the prop strike.  Times have changed.  Lee

Saw the same thing on a 182 back in the early 60s   Took the prop off, rebent it in a vice and flew it away