Mooney Bravo Batteries

[affricate]

Do you think replacing 2 working batteries from 2015 in a Mooney TLS Bravo is premature? 

I purchased the the plane in October, 2020 and just completed a MOH, new hoses, turbo overhaul, prop overall, fuel tank reseal, etc. 

I have battery minders, but I just don't know how long the batteries will last. Being in the Tucson heat, I would rather be safer than sorry.

Any thoughts?

[LANCECASPER]

If they are Gills for sure.

Either way, unless they’ve been charged, and since the airplane has been down eight months it’s probably a good idea to put two new Concorde 24-15’s in, since the batteries are six years old.


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[tls pilot]

The correct way is to check the battery capacity as per manufacturer

This is a true measure of what the battery can do, how much current it will deliver before exhausted etc

Then see how they do in real situations, say the plane sits 2 weeks no minder on them, check the resting voltage and how it cranks etc

 

This idea that if it is a Gill, the batteries need to be changed is simply a horrible way of looking at it.

Everyone can have an opinion on battery C or G but data and facts matter.

 

The ‘new’ Gill Sealed Batteries Valve regulated,  the super capacity 7243 -14 LT lasted nearly 7 years in harsh environments heat and extreme cold. They passed the capacity test even at that age, but a decision was made to change them out. They may have lasted another year or three…

Gill now has a 7243-16 which I have installed over a year ago and trouble free. Obviously early to judge, but based on the performance of the 7243-14 and the nearly seven years of service, we anticipate long life. As promised in earlier listings, we will report back with honest, non biased thoughts and data.

 

 

[philiplane]

Across the southern US, it's a good idea to change out batteries at the four year mark. No battery is intended to be stored at temperatures above 85 degrees, yet most airplanes in the south see daytime temperatures well above that for months on end. In an uninsulated hangar, we see temperatures of 100-110 degrees all summer when the outside temperature is about 90 degrees. While cold temperatures reduce cranking power, they also prolong the life. High temperatures do the opposite. When I lived in New England, we got 7-9 years from a battery. In Florida, 3 to 5 years is the best you can do. 

From the Concorde maintenance manual:

Another thing that is covered in the CMM is the storage temperature. Ideally, the storage temperature should be below 68 degrees F or 20 degrees C. Referring back to the capacity retention chart, you can see why cooler temperatures are preferred. At 20 degrees C, it takes about 15 months to reach 50% state of charge. At 30 degrees C, it only takes nine months to reach 50% state of charge. And at 10 degrees C, it takes well over 18 months to reach 50% state of charge. So, the cooler it is during storage, the longer you can go before a boost charge is necessary. However, if you cannot avoid storing the battery at warmer temperatures, it just means you will have to boost charge the battery more often.

[LANCECASPER]

Eighteen months ago since the Concorde RG 24-15 was backordered, against my better judgment, after being burned by numerous Gill G-243 batteries over the years, I bought the new sealed GIll 7243-16 to replace my six year old Concorde. I then bought the Gill Sealed LT specific battery minder. The new style Gill didn't quite make it through two Texas summers. It failed the capacity test at annual. It's the first time I've admitted buying another Gill when I swore I would never do that. Gill got me again. Completely my fault. I knew better. I'm back to two Concorde RG 24-15 batteries.

[mike_elliott]

Concorde has been a long time supporter of the Mooney Community and the Mooney Summit. We will have one to award to some lucky attendee in the raffle at the next Summit. Look for an announcement soon. Rick is working tirelessly trying to keep me under control and get this next date set up.

 

[Danb]

9 hours ago, affricate said:

Do you think replacing 2 working batteries from 2015 in a Mooney TLS Bravo is premature? 

I purchased the the plane in October, 2020 and just completed a MOH, new hoses, turbo overhaul, prop overall, fuel tank reseal, etc. 

I have battery minders, but I just don't know how long the batteries will last. Being in the Tucson heat, I would rather be safer than sorry.

Any thoughts?

No I don’t, a couple years ago my perfectly working Concordes had 8 years on them, out of caution both were replaced. I didn’t have battery minders on them, my new ones have a battery minder since I have electronic ignition 

[carusoam]

Summary… including some from after this post…
 

1) Most important… are they Concordes?

2) Do they pass capacity tests?

3) flying type and areas you fly…

• Do you fly in IMC?  
• Do you have electronic ignition?
• Do you live in a hot area or cold area?

 

4) Reasons to replace batteries in Mooneys…

• If they fail capacity tests…
• If they are old style Gills….
• (New style Gills don’t have much of a track record yet…)
• (old style Gills have no track record of being that old)

 

5) Kind of a…. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it… situation.  (Determine if they are broke first)

6) If you fly in IMC…. Battery Capacity test is the only way to be sure these things will work when alternator#1 goes off line…

7) If you are VFR only…. VMC isn’t as critical…

8) Things change slightly when you have alternator#2 and or additional back-up batteries for electronic AIs

 

PP summary only, not an energizer bunny…

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

44 minutes ago, carusoam said:

PP summary only, not an energizer bunny…

Best regards,

-a-

Judging by your 39,000 posts, I'm not so sure.  

[KLRDMD]

11 hours ago, affricate said:

Do you think replacing 2 working batteries from 2015 in a Mooney TLS Bravo is premature? 

In the Tucson heat, absolutely replace them. It easily gets over 150º in our hangars in the summer. How long does a battery last in your car?

Edited October 18, 2021 by KLRDMD

[affricate]

On 10/17/2021 at 2:17 PM, LANCECASPER said:

Eighteen months ago since the Concorde RG 24-15 was backordered, against my better judgment, after being burned by numerous Gill G-243 batteries over the years, I bought the new sealed GIll 7243-16 to replace my six year old Concorde. I then bought the Gill Sealed LT specific battery minder. The new style Gill didn't quite make it through two Texas summers. It failed the capacity test at annual. It's the first time I've admitted buying another Gill when I swore I would never do that. Gill got me again. Completely my fault. I knew better. I'm back to two Concorde RG 24-15 batteries.

This is what my mechanic ordered: Concorde RG 24-15 times 2

[thinwing]

I had to replace my #1 placed 2014 in july.#2 dates to 2018 ...failure of #1 was expected as there was a noticable difference in crank speeds (I try to alternate between #1 and #2 everyother flight.Both batteries have full time batteryminders set up for concordes...since one of the batteries is simply a backup....i felt comfortable having two different age batteries.The #1 finally suffered an internal short to 0 volts during engine start....switching to #2 ,immediate cure but than I no longer had the backup of #1.

[Davidv]

On 10/20/2021 at 11:52 PM, affricate said:

This is what my mechanic ordered: Concorde RG 24-15 times 2

So you’re not getting adequate start power? Is that why they were ordered? If it’s starting fine and you’re worried they are going to die why not do 1 at a time? The second battery is nice for redundancy but largely ballast.

[affricate]

10 hours ago, Davidv said:

So you’re not getting adequate start power? Is that why they were ordered? If it’s starting fine and you’re worried they are going to die why not do 1 at a time? The second battery is nice for redundancy but largely ballast.

Plane has been sitting for 7 months because of MOH and current batteries are 5 years old. New batteries have been purchased and installed. 

[LANCECASPER]

On 10/17/2021 at 4:17 PM, LANCECASPER said:

Eighteen months ago since the Concorde RG 24-15 was backordered, against my better judgment, after being burned by numerous Gill G-243 batteries over the years, I bought the new sealed GIll 7243-16 to replace my six year old Concorde. I then bought the Gill Sealed LT specific battery minder. The new style Gill didn't quite make it through two Texas summers. It failed the capacity test at annual. It's the first time I've admitted buying another Gill when I swore I would never do that. Gill got me again. Completely my fault. I knew better. I'm back to two Concorde RG 24-15 batteries.

Since it was less than two years and they carry a two year warranty on the Gill 7243-16, earlier this week I thought hey let me check and see if they will do the right thing and cover this so I can at least get something out of this . .  maybe give the replacement to someone who needs a battery. The lady on the phone was nice but since I bought the battery in March 2020 they calculate that I'm in my 20th month now, so pro-rated they would give me 4/24ths credit off of full retail, roughly $100 off, if I decide to buy another one of the same batteries. Not a chance they are going to get me again.

[xcrmckenna]

Since it was less than two years and they carry a two year warranty on the Gill 7243-16, earlier this week I thought hey let me check and see if they will do the right thing and cover this so I can at least get something out of this . .  maybe give the replacement to someone who needs a battery. The lady on the phone was nice but since I bought the battery in March 2020 they calculate that I'm in my 20th month now, so pro-rated they would give me 4/24ths credit off of full retail, roughly $100 off, if I decide to buy another one of the same batteries. Not a chance they are going to get me again.

Hey Lance,
Trying to learn all I can. Wondering why you weren’t with the 24-15? I see there are a lot of sub 24 models and Aircraft spruce list all of them for the Bravo. Is the 15 a happy medium or is that actually the one certified for the Bravo?


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[LANCECASPER]

9 minutes ago, xcrmckenna said:

Hey Lance,
Trying to learn all I can. Wondering why you weren’t with the 24-15? I see there are a lot of sub 24 models and Aircraft spruce list all of them for the Bravo. Is the 15 a happy medium or is that actually the one certified for the Bravo?


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That's the Concorde that I use, the 24-15. However in March 2020 when I needed a battery Concordes were backordered.

Another thing I've learned from this is that output voltage of the regulator has a lot to do with battery life (it can be adjusted). I'm convinced that the 28.8-28.9 that my Bravo was putting out shortened the Concordes and the 7243-16 Gill in my Bravo. The Acclaim regulator puts out 28.3-28.4 and the Concordes that were in there when I bought it were ancient, one was original from 2008 and the other from 2012-13. I've since changed them out but I'm hoping for better life.

[daytonabch04]

I have the Concorde 24-11M in my Bravo. Was wondering if I could switch to the 24-15 as the -11M has been back ordered for months upon months. Wasn’t sure the difference between the two but noticed both are approved. 

[xcrmckenna]

I have the Concorde 24-11M in my Bravo. Was wondering if I could switch to the 24-15 as the -11M has been back ordered for months upon months. Wasn’t sure the difference between the two but noticed both are approved. 

It looks like aircraft spruce has 38 24-11m’s in stock. But I’m guessing the -15’s have more capacity.


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[carusoam]

Check to see if the letters XC show up in the name anywhere….

This is the name Concorde uses for extra capacity…

The XC is probably a bit taller as it adds a bit more battery for the extra capacity…

It also adds a bit more weight….

 

Make sure, if the battery weight changes… update to the WnB gets completed…

 

The good news… extra battery capacity is better than Charlie weights… 

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

10 hours ago, daytonabch04 said:

I have the Concorde 24-11M in my Bravo. Was wondering if I could switch to the 24-15 as the -11M has been back ordered for months upon months. Wasn’t sure the difference between the two but noticed both are approved. 

For sure you can. You'll have an extra 2.6 amp hours per battery. (13.6 vs. 11). They are 3 pounds heavier (29.5 vs. 26.5) so you'll have to account for that. However your original weight and balance probably had Gill G243s  in it, which are each 28.0 lbs. with acid.

[Dickard]

I have two RG24-11M.  Replaced during the prebuy/annual.  Good thing?  Bad thing?  I have no clue.  The PO sent along his battery charger.  At least it looks like charger, rather than a tender.  From my sports car days, I know that a charger can kill a battery.  Don't really want to kill two new aircraft batteries.  Turns out they are a tad more expensive than car batteries.  Who knew? 

[Schllc]

On 10/17/2021 at 8:19 PM, Danb said:

No I don’t, a couple years ago my perfectly working Concordes had 8 years on them, out of caution both were replaced. I didn’t have battery minders on them, my new ones have a battery minder since I have electronic ignition 

I cant argue about the lifespan or reliability of any battery, but what i can attest to is that when they fail, it is almost always immediately and completely.  It has been like that in my cars and for the two airplane batteries that failed.  Start fine, stop, two hours later go to start, barely enough juice to run the buzzer.....

If it were me and they were 5-6 years old, I would absolutely change them, simply because I would prefer to waste a year of use than get stuck somewhere.   

I don't think either decision would be "wrong", just a preference of the type of inconvenience you find more acceptable.

[daytonabch04]

What would be the average life of a battery?  After how many years would be a good time to replace a battery/Concorde?

[LANCECASPER]

27 minutes ago, daytonabch04 said:

What would be the average life of a battery?  After how many years would be a good time to replace a battery/Concorde?

I would make sure that your shop does a capacity test every annual. It depends on a lot of factors: Climate, your charging system, how often you fly, whether you desulfate with a batteryminder. Some long bodies seems to eat batteries for lunch. I think that has to do with the fairly crude trickle charge circuits on the airplane and your voltage regulator output.

Whether this makes any difference I don't know, but I make sure to exercise both batteries. If I'm flying on an odd day I start it on Battery 1. If I'm flying on an even day I'll start it on Battery 2. I think a lot of airplanes are left on #1 most if not all of the time and when it gets to the point where it starts real slow or not at all, then they switch to #2 and realize that they have two batteries that need replacing. By using both I want to know ahead of time if I'm starting to have an issue with either. Since being told by a few people that really know Mooneys well, not to Switch batteries when it's running I haven't done that. Obviously I would follow the checklist in an emergency.