When things start getting complicated ...

[donkaye]

Today at KCCR:

Me:  Good Afternoon Concord Ground, Mooney 9148W, Sterling, ready to taxi with Bravo.

Ground: 9148W Concord Ground, taxi to Runway 19R via Lima, Alpha, Cross 32L, Cross 32R via Alpha.  This was said in rapid fire ATC speak.

Me, not wanting to embarrass myself: Ground, tell you what, request Progressive to 19R

Turns out Lima is striped but part of the non movement area and not well marked.  If you fly out of there, it's all not much of a problem, but if you haven't, you could easily screw it up.  It had been quite a while since I had flown into Concord.  In the interest of saving time and not screwing up, Progressive taxiing took off all the pressure.

I needed to fly back there later in the day.  The second time I had everything written down, and Progressive wasn't necessary.

[ArtVandelay]

Liveatc.net sometimes has ground frequencies of airports, if doing preflight planning I go there to get a gist of what to expect. Places like KSQL it helps a lot because of their non standard communications.

[GeeBee]

Must be a rookie. Most controllers know a pilot can only absorb three instructions in one transmission.

 

 

[JimB]

2 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Must be a rookie. Most controllers know a pilot can only absorb three instructions in one transmission.

 

Three? Some guys I know have a really hard time with just one!

[philip_g]

On 9/2/2021 at 5:33 AM, GeeBee said:

Must be a rookie. Most controllers know a pilot can only absorb three instructions in one transmission.

 

 

When you call and request a clearance, it's generally understood that you are ready to you know, copy said clearance 

[Will.iam]

58 minutes ago, philip_g said:

When you call and request a clearance, it's generally understood that you are ready to you know, copy said clearance 

Yep and when they fire it off fast trying to save time it requires a repeat or correction to which takes more time for everybody involved. 

[Hank]

11 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

Yep and when they fire it off fast trying to save time it requires a repeat or correction to which takes more time for everybody involved. 

"Do you hear how fast I talk? That's how fast I listen!" Shamelessly borrowed from someone's "heard on the radio" story, waiting for a chance to use it myself. Life is good in the boonies, and ATL Approach keeps me away anyway.

[AerostarDriver]

26 minutes ago, Hank said:

"Do you hear how fast I talk? That's how fast I listen!" Shamelessly borrowed from someone's "heard on the radio" story, waiting for a chance to use it myself. Life is good in the boonies, and ATL Approach keeps me away anyway.

I love ATL approach, more then happy to work with you. Some times they are a little fast but they are willing to put the effort in, something I can't say for Jax Center in my experience. 

[Will.iam]

What’s really nice is flightaware will have the updated dreaded “reroute” that for some system limitation reason can not be sent via PDC. But even for GA if you have your tail number in Flightaware you can see what the new reroute will be 9 times out of 10 and it’s soooo much easier to just verify what clearance delivery is giving you than to be writing down alphabet soup ticker tape trying to keep up. 

[midlifeflyer]

9 hours ago, philip_g said:

When you call and request a clearance, it's generally understood that you are ready to you know, copy said clearance 

"Ready to copy" does not imply speed hearing, an eidetic memory, secretarial shorthand skills, or prior experience with the airport.

More likely, they have a substantial percentage of based and familiar transient aircraft and are just used to rattling off an instruction they give a few hundred times a day. Don's request for a progressive, or a repeat, or yes, a review of the taxi diagram to figure out the likely routing ahead of time, are all legitimate solutions. With multiple hotspots along the taxi route - y'know, places where experienced pilot have screwed up? - I'd choose Don's solution  even if I did  copy the instructions.

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by midlifeflyer

[eman1200]

20 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

...review of the taxi diagram to figure out the likely routing ahead of time,...

 

 

this.

[GeeBee]

9 hours ago, AerostarDriver said:

I love ATL approach, more then happy to work with you. Some times they are a little fast but they are willing to put the effort in, something I can't say for Jax Center in my experience. 

Used to love "Deputy Dawg" on ATL approach. He talked real slow like the cartoon character "Deputy Dawg". I met him once at a social gathering. He talked at a normal cadence. He told me that he was taught to slow it down when things get busy as it allows the controller's brain to catch up as well as the pilot's. If you remember "Buzz" aka Buzz Clarke at ATL approach ( signature, "Good day gentlemen") he told me the same thing. They both told me a controller talking fast is a controller not properly engaged. I take them at their word, as these two were "the best of the best" because you don't get to work ATL Tracon unless you are on your game.

[philip_g]

4 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

"Ready to copy" does not imply speed hearing, an eidetic memory, secretarial shorthand skills, or prior experience with the airport.

More likely, they have a substantial percentage of based and familiar transient aircraft and are just used to rattling off an instruction they give a few hundred times a day. Don's request for a progressive, or a repeat, or yes, a review of the taxi diagram to figure out the likely routing ahead of time, are all legitimate solutions. With multiple hotspots along the taxi route - y'know, places where experienced pilot have screwed up? - I'd choose Don's solution  even if I did  copy the instructions.

 

I hangar at a class b. If you can't write down taxiway letters as fast or faster than they can be spoken, well idk what to tell you. Write the clearance down. Draw it on the airport diagram and follow it. None of it's terribly complicated. You're telling me you can't handle joining A at L and following it to the end of the runway without a single hold short? 

Edited September 6, 2021 by philip_g

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, philip_g said:

You're telling me you can't handle joining A at L and following it to the end of the runway without a single hold short? 

I don't think I said that at all. I think I said that the FAA has identified multiple hotspots along that route, including two adjoining one where 6 taxiways meet, to inform pilots willing to listen that pilots less perfect than you have had trouble there. Since I am among the less-than-perfect (apparently @donkaye too), I might choose to opt for a progressive here if I weren't already familiar without losing an ounce of self-esteem. 

 

2 hours ago, philip_g said:

If you can't write down taxiway letters as fast or faster than they can be spoken, well idk what to tell you

OTOH, I'll leave it to you to figure out what losing your esteem means to me.

[midlifeflyer]

7 hours ago, eman1200 said:

this.

I think most of us do that for departure but many forget to do it prior to arrival. Of course, even looking, at some airports, we go ""WTF?"

[donkaye]

3 hours ago, philip_g said:

I hangar at a class b. If you can't write down taxiway letters as fast or faster than they can be spoken, well idk what to tell you. Write the clearance down. Draw it on the airport diagram and follow it. None of it's terribly complicated. You're telling me you can't handle joining A at L and following it to the end of the runway without a single hold short? 

Well, obviously you're the expert here, however, looking at the Airport Chart and actually being there are two different things regarding this airport.  Taxiway L is short and not well marked among one mass of asphalt.  As mentioned, there are hotspots to contend with, any one of which could get you violated if you should screw up.

In the interest of both safety and time, I unhesitatingly took the easy way out with a Progressive Taxi.

[ilovecornfields]

Nothing wrong with using the resources available to you to ensure a safe outcome.

I can copy pretty quickly and always have the airport diagram out and figure out what my expected route will be. Sometimes I still screw it up. Last week I turned the wrong way down the right taxiway which the controller was kind enough to quickly point out. No harm, no foul.

In an ideal world we’d all be perfect but in the real world its better to be safe than sorry.

[Will.iam]

12 hours ago, philip_g said:

I hangar at a class b. If you can't write down taxiway letters as fast or faster than they can be spoken, well idk what to tell you. Write the clearance down. Draw it on the airport diagram and follow it. None of it's terribly complicated. You're telling me you can't handle joining A at L and following it to the end of the runway without a single hold short? 

What does hangering at a class b have to do with your ability to write down taxi instructions? No one mentioned it was or was not complicated except you. Several people did say there is a possibility to screw up and they are explaining ways they mitigate that but since you have never had that problem you don’t seem to understand how others could. Don’t worry your day will come. Hopefully it’s only your pride that gets hurt. 

[Shadrach]

43 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

What does hangering at a class b have to do with your ability to write down taxi instructions? No one mentioned it was or was not complicated except you. Several people did say there is a possibility to screw up and they are explaining ways they mitigate that but since you have never had that problem you don’t seem to understand how others could. Don’t worry your day will come. Hopefully it’s only your pride that gets hurt. 

I read it as a “subtle” attempt at showcasing superiority… just in case tearing into to highly experienced CFIs wasn’t enough. 

[donkaye]

44 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I read it as a “subtle” attempt at showcasing superiority… just in case tearing into to highly experienced CFIs wasn’t enough. 

Subtle?  Hardly.

[Shadrach]

4 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Subtle?  Hardly.

I quoted subtle for a reason…

[GeeBee]

I'll say this. I've received taxi instructions with three professional pilots listening and one to copy and everyone in the cockpit said, "WTF, say again!"

 

[flyboy0681]

My audio panel has playback capability and there have been a few times when I reply "Standby for read back" as I replay the instructions, sometimes more than once.

Having been based at Concord for a few years, I know just how confusing the runway and taxiway structures can be, especially when approaching the airport VFR.

The one instruction that you got which doesn't make sense is "Cross 32L" because it doesn't intersect taxiway Alpha.

[Jim Peace]

On 9/6/2021 at 12:43 PM, philip_g said:

I hangar at a class b. If you can't write down taxiway letters as fast or faster than they can be spoken, well idk what to tell you. Write the clearance down. Draw it on the airport diagram and follow it. None of it's terribly complicated. You're telling me you can't handle joining A at L and following it to the end of the runway without a single hold short? 

your fellow pilots must be so grateful for the end of the work day.....

oh by the way...we all put our locations as to where we hangar....yours says FPR...not a class B. BWTFDIK.....

 

[Unit74]

On 9/6/2021 at 12:36 AM, AerostarDriver said:

I love ATL approach, more then happy to work with you. Some times they are a little fast but they are willing to put the effort in, something I can't say for Jax Center in my experience. 

I fly in JAX airspace weekly. I’ve never had anything but the best service from them.