M20C head on collision with Hanger Beam

[Hank]

9 hours ago, MikeOH said:

 

So, tell me, how do you guys only make completely legal and insurance claim worthy mistakes?  Or, do you just never make mistakes?

They never make mistakes, except for the odd admission years after the fact . . . . 

[ArtVandelay]

So, tell me, how do you guys only make completely legal and insurance claim worthy mistakes?  Or, do you just never make mistakes?

My view is insurance is for major accidents or liability incidents, not for minor hangar rash. If I was close to TBO, I’d probably just do the engine overhaul, get new prop blades and fix the sheet metal damage with money out of pocket.

[PMcClure]

As a guy who routinely restores things of no monetary value, I feel your pain. The joke around here is that we have an axe that has been in the family for over 100 years. We only had to replace the head once and the handle 4 times.

I have had a 1955 Chevy for over 30 years and rarely drive it anymore out of fear that someone will wreck into me and I will end up in prison. The kids fight over who gets it when I die and I just tell them to dig the grave big enough and roll me into it sitting behind the wheel. 

When my son turned 14, we talked about getting an old truck and fixing it up. We got a lead on grandaddy's 1971 F100 and tracked it down, only to find out it was totaled. Instead of wasting years and money fixing that one, I found a similar one in Oklahoma. Woke my son up at 5am on his birthday and flew out to Tulsa and bought it on the spot for $1500. We drove it back to Alabama together using 100 gal of gas but only 2 gal of oil. We still laugh and talk about that adventure and he is 25. 

We spent 2 years getting it going and he drove it as his 1st car. He learned how to use hand tools and the expense of stripping a 40 year old rusted bolt. We have countless hours of time together. We named it Smiley in honor of granddaddy's personality and middle name. But it is green and eventually took on the personality of "Pickles". Granddaddy would be proud. 

Later, I traded my fathers handed down 1941 Plymouth to my son and Pickles is in my driveway with a bored and stroked 445 engine. Grandaddy may not approve. 

Point being, the sentimental thing does not have to be the thing itself. It is the tradition. I recommend you find a rebuildable model and involve your daughter in the rebuild and upgrade. She will learn a ton and you will have something together and something she feels ownership in. Keep an momento of the old plane around. The disaster will be part of the story but Dad's memory will live on. 

Just my 2 cents. Best of luck. Paul 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, MikeOH said:

 

So, tell me, how do you guys only make completely legal and insurance claim worthy mistakes?  Or, do you just never make mistakes?

My comment was not meant to be regarding this incident, but the fact that so often posts here seem like being in a confessional.

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, Hank said:

They never make mistakes, except for the odd admission years after the fact . . . . 

Not exactly correct.  I've made mistakes in flying and other things in my life,and as I'm sure we all have. I just tend to keep them private.

Clarence

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

My view is insurance is for major accidents or liability incidents, not for minor hangar rash. If I was close to TBO, I’d probably just do the engine overhaul, get new prop blades and fix the sheet metal damage with money out of pocket.

I don’t think this qualifies as minor hangar rash.

Sure sounded like to me that he plans on fixing it out of pocket, I base that on the comment that he was willing to spend more than it’s worth to fix it, from the description I’d assume insurence would total it?

Besides Insurence doesn’t go up because one guy or a couple make a mistake, that's averaged out and calculated in. People make mistakes every year, a large enough sample and you can get surprisingly accurate in forecasting.

‘What is tougher to average out and may affect rates is a tornado that eats 100 airplanes, or a hurricane that gets even more.

What upsets me is seeing aircraft tied down outside, or even in hangars with a hurricane approaching, if you ask the owners it’s very likely they will tell you “that’s what insurence is for”

Hurricane is a scheduled event, an airworthy airplane ought to be evacuated, but a great many aren’t.

Those are the ones that we should be irritated with, their act is intentional, by definition an accident isn’t.

 

Edited June 23, 2021 by A64Pilot

[PeteMc]

25 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

What upsets me is seeing aircraft tied down outside, or even in hangars with a hurricane approaching, if you ask the owners it’s very likely they will tell you “that’s what insurence is for”

It seems like the insurance companies have been making changes lately, mostly with rates.  But I wonder if any have hurricane exclusion clauses added.  It is true that you know there is a potential for damage, but you're knowingly leaving the plane in (possible) harms way.

 

[A64Pilot]

I just came off of living on a sailboat and cruising around the Caribbean in Winter and hiding way up river past Jacksonville in the Ortega river for Hurricane season, as hurricanes scare me. Figured boat was safe there andJax is an easy place to evacuate from, several major highways going in different directions.

Anyway insurence for a sailboat was both getting expensive and simply going away as many companies simply left the market.

What many of us think was happening was the fleets of Catamarans that were privately owned but leased to to Charter Companies, anyway as the Charter Company didn’t own the boats, when a Hurricane was coming the boats were pretty much left to fend for themselves, and I’m sure millions of dollars of them were destroyed at each major hurricane

Those big Charter fleets didn’t used to exist, and prior to them anyone with a lot of their personal wealth tied up in a boat either left the area during hurricane season or at least put them on the hard, chained down to the ground and losses happened, but no where near the rate of the Charter fleets tied up to finger piers.

Many insurence companies required you to have a written and approved plan that if you didn’t execute, then your insurence presumably wasn’t valid, but a great many started by jacking the rates up so that even after paying for the Charter Fleet losses, they turned a profit, and many simply just left the market.

Before the fleet losses insurence was affordable, but an accident here and there wasn’t what caused the insurence to do what it did, it was losses of fleets of high dollar boats.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, PeteMc said:

It seems like the insurance companies have been making changes lately, mostly with rates.  But I wonder if any have hurricane exclusion clauses added.  It is true that you know there is a potential for damage, but you're knowingly leaving the plane in (possible) harms way.

 

Like many policies, mine has a clause to reimburse a certain dollar amount of expenses to relocate the plane away from a hurricane. Pay attention to details to make sure the relocation is to an acceptable location! I know people who have driven away from a hurricane, only to be hit hard in their "safe" spot . . . .

[Hank]

5 hours ago, PMcClure said:

As a guy who routinely restores things of no monetary value, I feel your pain. The joke around here is that we have an axe that has been in the family for over 100 years. We only had to replace the head once and the handle 4 times.

I have had a 1955 Chevy for over 30 years and rarely drive it anymore out of fear that someone will wreck into me and I will end up in prison. The kids fight over who gets it when I die and I just tell them to dig the grave big enough and roll me into it sitting behind the wheel. 

When my son turned 14, we talked about getting an old truck and fixing it up. We got a lead on grandaddy's 1971 F100 and tracked it down, only to find out it was totaled. Instead of wasting years and money fixing that one, I found a similar one in Oklahoma. Woke my son up at 5am on his birthday and flew out to Tulsa and bought it on the spot for $1500. We drove it back to Alabama together using 100 gal of gas but only 2 gal of oil. We still laugh and talk about that adventure and he is 25. 

We spent 2 years getting it going and he drove it as his 1st car. He learned how to use hand tools and the expense of stripping a 40 year old rusted bolt. We have countless hours of time together. We named it Smiley in honor of granddaddy's personality and middle name. But it is green and eventually took on the personality of "Pickles". Granddaddy would be proud. 

Later, I traded my fathers handed down 1941 Plymouth to my son and Pickles is in my driveway with a bored and stroked 445 engine. Grandaddy may not approve. 

Point being, the sentimental thing does not have to be the thing itself. It is the tradition. I recommend you find a rebuildable model and involve your daughter in the rebuild and upgrade. She will learn a ton and you will have something together and something she feels ownership in. Keep an momento of the old plane around. The disaster will be part of the story but Dad's memory will live on. 

Just my 2 cents. Best of luck. Paul 

Sad to say it, @rdbroderson, but this looks like good advice. Spend the same money to buy a different C, upgrade it and paint to match the family plane. You will have lots of bonding time while it is going together, as well as quality time planning upgrades, doing panel layouts, etc.

[A64Pilot]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

Like many policies, mine has a clause to reimburse a certain dollar amount of expenses to relocate the plane away from a hurricane. Pay attention to details to make sure the relocation is to an acceptable location! I know people who have driven away from a hurricane, only to be hit hard in their "safe" spot . . . .

When I was in the Army at HAAF in Savannah Ga., We kept the Apache’s in huge hangers, I could put 24 Apaches in about 1/3  of the hanger, other units had the rest of it, these hangars were huge, the doors had honest railroad car wheels and large glass panels designed to blowout before the door would, I believe they were designed as B-36 nose docks, but don’t think a B-36 was ever in Savannah.

So we Hurricane evacuated to Columbus Ga and tied the aircraft outside on the ramp, Thankfully for us the Hurricane turned North and went to North Carolina like most did.

‘But moving out of those nearly bombproof hangars and relocating to the same State wasn’t smart in my book.

[carusoam]

Flying away from a hurricane is pretty reliable… and my insurance paid for it…

Oddly, ATC headed me towards it in IMC… before getting my clearance organized and me into the system properly…

Hurricane wast to my East, direction of my flight due West…

I still have Mom’s last truck…  at 20 years old… it probably won’t be around for a whole lot longer…  

Hoping there is a silver lining behind this cloud…

Best regards,

-a-

[rdbroderson]

On 6/21/2021 at 10:36 AM, M20Doc said:

We face the same thing in our hangar group.  People seem to have little appreciation for the property of others.  Refueling in hangars, run ups aimed at hangars.  Thankfully most of them have moved on.

Clarence

To Clarence. I certainly can appreciate your view on hangers and hanger groups. This happens to be my personal hanger and rarely have any one else's property stored. Once in a while someone will want a space for overnight or for a few days but at this particular time most planes have been moved to different airports and no planes can land until Nov 1 because of major airport and runway reconstruction. If I were a member of a hanger group I would like to think I would follow the rules. Everything you mentioned makes a lot of good sense and I will most likely change the rules for myself when I get back in the air. Thank You.

[Jim Peace]

On 6/23/2021 at 10:25 AM, A64Pilot said:

Hurricane is a scheduled event, an airworthy airplane ought to be evacuated, but a great many aren’t.

Those are the ones that we should be irritated with, their act is intentional, by definition an accident isn’t.

 

Maybe the owner of the airplane is on a two to three week business trip to earn money for his family and airplane and cant be home to move it.  It happens all the time....

Also is there such a thing as an accident?  I do dumb things myself and if I trace back from the dumb event I find it was bound to happen due to the circumstances that I allowed to happen....

"""The term accident specifically means that it was not any persons intention at the start, or the outcome was so far removed from what was expected that it couldn't be avoided without more information and planning."""

Would starting a plane in a hangar and then hitting something be so far removed from what was expected? How many airplanes have you seen started in a hangar...

I have seen one in over 30 years of flying...I even have it on video but unfortunately I cant share it...I dont know how to remove the tail number or block out the faces... 

[Aviationinfo]

On 6/24/2021 at 7:37 PM, rdbroderson said:

To Clarence. I certainly can appreciate your view on hangers and hanger groups. This happens to be my personal hanger and rarely have any one else's property stored. Once in a while someone will want a space for overnight or for a few days but at this particular time most planes have been moved to different airports and no planes can land until Nov 1 because of major airport and runway reconstruction. If I were a member of a hanger group I would like to think I would follow the rules. Everything you mentioned makes a lot of good sense and I will most likely change the rules for myself when I get back in the air. Thank You.

To RD:

I’m real sorry this happened and admire your honesty.  You don’t need help beating yourself up or with reviewing the accident.

As this plane has high sentimental value, I would suggest contacting one of the aforementioned airframe repair centers and flying someone in to assess the damage, before you make any decisions.  You’d hate to dismantle and ship it someplace only to find out that it can’t be repaired for some reason.  The cost will only be a small part of the total restoration.   Then if you decide to move forward, your eyes are going to be wide open and there will be fewer surprises.

I would get it assessed and gather some more data points, talk to your family and move on from there.

Good luck!

[A64Pilot]

On 6/25/2021 at 10:14 PM, Jim Peace said:

Maybe the owner of the airplane is on a two to three week business trip to earn money for his family and airplane and cant be home to move it.  It happens all the time....

That explains one or two, but not a whole ramp full.

‘Some get desensitized, nothing happened the last three hurricane warnings, why bother this time?

[Hank]

3 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

That explains one or two, but not a whole ramp full.

‘Some get desensitized, nothing happened the last three hurricane warnings, why bother this time?

Some of us have jobs to attend to every day, plus homes and property to prepare for the storm.