Does Anyone Land their F or J with No Flaps?

[Yetti]

22 hours ago, kpaul said:

I have landed every airplane I have ever flown in every flap setting available.  You wouldn't want your first time landing 0 flap be during a flap malfunction.  The M20F is pretty docile to land in any flap position if you are on speed.  You may touch down faster but there is no reason to touch down farther down the runway then usual.  You just have to adjust your aim point to account for the additional speed and distance traveled during the round out and flare.

I never understand statements like "you will have additional speed" "you may touch down faster"   If you ski uphill your speed will approach zero and then go negative.   If you have additional speed then that is something that the pilot have not effectively managed based on current conditions with the tools available to manage it.  There are lots of things that can be done to remove excess speed.  pull up a bit.  put the gear out.  flaps.   less throttle earlier.  a little s turn.  slip.

[kpaul]

On 6/13/2021 at 1:11 PM, Yetti said:

I never understand statements like "you will have additional speed" "you may touch down faster"   If you ski uphill your speed will approach zero and then go negative.   If you have additional speed then that is something that the pilot have not effectively managed based on current conditions with the tools available to manage it.  There are lots of things that can be done to remove excess speed.  pull up a bit.  put the gear out.  flaps.   less throttle earlier.  a little s turn.  slip.

Then I guess I don't understand how you land with different flap settings at the same speed.  Since the aircraft stalls at different speeds based on flap setting you should fly faster 0 flap vs. full flap.  In doing so you will touch down faster with 0 flaps.  This is true for every aircraft, not just Mooneys.

[Yetti]

7 minutes ago, kpaul said:

Then I guess I don't understand how you land with different flap settings at the same speed.  Since the aircraft stalls at different speeds based on flap setting you should fly faster 0 flap vs. full flap.  In doing so you will touch down faster with 0 flaps.  This is true for every aircraft, not just Mooneys.

You can fly it on you know.   Do you have to stall the plane to land it?   The flaps on a mooney don't really do that much as far as speed.

We are talking about 5 mph here.   Since I land with descending energy.  The time between 5 mph is about 3.5 seconds.

 

[robert7467]

I do a lot of no flaps. In my C I come in at 85mph, once over the fence, I don't even pay much attention to airspeed, nor do I trim for landing. I just focus down the end of the runway and she greases about every time. If I have to do a missed approach, I don't don't have to mess with flaps or trim. Just push the carb heat and power in and I am set up for the go around. Now, that I am putting in the GFC and working on my instrument I am going to get more into procedures (going from stick and rudder to more professional flying). I have done touch and goes in a Merlin and I see the need for procedures in a much larger, more complex aircraft. My instrument/commercial training will allow me to start from scratch and break bad habits. However as far as the C goes, that extra airspeed gives me a lot more control during windy conditions and I am not having to dip the wing down too much. I think the flaps cup the wing during crosswinds and it really captures the crosswind. That's just my thoughts and what works for me! Don't take my advice, I am very green compared to most people on this board.

[M20F-1968]

On 6/14/2021 at 8:29 PM, kpaul said:

Then I guess I don't understand how you land with different flap settings at the same speed.  Since the aircraft stalls at different speeds based on flap setting you should fly faster 0 flap vs. full flap.  In doing so you will touch down faster with 0 flaps.  This is true for every aircraft, not just Mooneys.

Using 1.3 X stall speed in the configuration being used will result in landing speeds that are faster with no flaps. and slower with full flaps.  These numbers are further adjusted using the landing weight at the time (There are charts available to adjust for these differences.) 

One should be aware of actual speed coming over the threshold as 1 kt faster than expected will cost you about 100 feet of lost runway.  Flap settings will affect landing speed, stall speed, and planning for touchdown.  A Mooney floats too much to not appreciate these differences.  Coming over the threshold 5 kts faster than expected at a 2500 foot runway will cost 20% of otherwise useful runway.  Depending on conditions, that could be significant.  

John Breda

[Shadrach]

So to answer your question, yes  I have landed the M20F no flaps...many times.  I can say this for all of the certified singles I've ever flown (at least for those that had flaps).  I think it is a suboptimal approach to landing the M20F.  I think better and more passenger friendly landings can be achieved with full flaps.  Full flaps also allow a steeper power off approach facilitating obstacle clearance and visibility.  It really is not very different from 3 point TD landings except for the Mooney will be much more stable in the yaw axis.  What problems are you having?  It is likely that one way or another they are tied to airspeed.

[Shadrach]

On 6/14/2021 at 8:29 PM, kpaul said:

Then I guess I don't understand how you land with different flap settings at the same speed.  Since the aircraft stalls at different speeds based on flap setting you should fly faster 0 flap vs. full flap.  In doing so you will touch down faster with 0 flaps.  This is true for every aircraft, not just Mooneys.

He's not landing as you (or I) would define it, he's flying with the tires rolling down the runway.  I've seen a lot of folks use this  "technique".  I did it while getting checked out in the Mooney.  I was fast but I made it work.  After my rather buttery touchdown, the instructor pulled the yoke back. The plane lifted off, he flared and landed again without adding power.  I was embarrassed.  It really is the worst of both worlds control wise. Mushy control through the yoke and diminished steering/braking.  Every landing requires the pilot to transition from flying to high speed taxi. Why some think it's just fine to spend an extended period of time straddling that line is beyond me.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Shadrach

[Derrickearly]

Was forced to take off and land without flaps yesterday in my 20F.  The angle on climb out was much reduced and made life very interesting.  The tree tops didn't drop away as they usually do.  On landing at a 2,400 ft runway, I had to use lots of braking. Usually, landing with flaps requires almost no braking at all.  I'll be pleased when the mechanic returns my flaps to service.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Derrickearly

[midlifeflyer]

On 6/10/2021 at 5:00 PM, JohnZ said:

I takeoff and land it full flaps, no flaps, half flaps, whatever. Honestly I don't think it changes anything that much and it all feels pretty much the same to me. I also don't go to any airports where takeoff or landing distances are an issue.

I agree things change less than people expect. Mooneys are no different than other single in that respect. I would expect a higher pitch attitude on  final since you need the form drag to slow down, and 1.3 (or 1.2 for short fields) Vs in the no-flap configuration would be marginally higher with a similar increase in landing distance, but the stall speed will also be higher and the pitch attitude on touchdown would be pretty much the same.

As already mentioned, a good maneuver to practice and learn before you need it.

[Shadrach]

16 hours ago, Derrickearly said:

Was forced to take off and land without flaps yesterday in my 20F.  The angle on climb out was much reduced and made life very interesting.  The tree tops didn't drop away as they usually do.  On landing at a 2,400 ft runway, I had to use lots of braking. Usually, landing with flaps requires almost no braking at all.  I'll be pleased when the mechanic returns my flaps to service.

Once above 85mph, the plane should climb slightly better and pitch should be slightly higher without flaps. Is there a chance you were overcompensating because you are i’m a custom to flying in that configuration?

[MBDiagMan]

Quick follow up:

The engine is finished and I am back in the air in the Mooney for the first time since January.  I pondered this a lot including processing the great feedback I got on this thread.  I made a number of landings in my head.  In the course of the engine break in flying I did this week I have made five landings, all full flap and for the first time I feel almost as comfortable landing the F as I ever did the C.

 I think the break through was starting the round out lower than I used to.  I can bring it down close, hod it off, bleed the speed and settle it down.  I’ve even done a few really good approaches in it too.

Thanks for offering your comments, support and sharing your experience.

[Derrickearly]

53 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Once above 85mph, the plane should climb slightly better and pitch should be slightly higher without flaps. Is there a chance you were overcompensating because you are i’m a custom to flying in that configuration?

Do I have a different Vx with the flaps up?  When clearing obstacles, I tend to fly Vx. 

[midlifeflyer]

52 minutes ago, Derrickearly said:

Do I have a different Vx with the flaps up?  When clearing obstacles, I tend to fly Vx. 

Maybe. Maybe not. Vx, in theory, is the best angle of climb speed in the clean configuration. Takeoff obstacle clearance speed is often something different.  So it really depends on how your manual uses the terms. You can see an example in the earlier J models.  In Section 4 (normal ops) of Manual # 1233 the it shows the best angle of climb at 69 KIAS at max gross. In Section 5 (performance) in the max performance takeoff table, it's 66 KIAS with 15° flaps and the gear down.

But you';ll notice the difference is not huge.

[Derrickearly]

10 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Maybe. Maybe not. Vx, in theory, is the best angle of climb speed in the clean configuration. Takeoff obstacle clearance speed is often something different.  So it really depends on how your manual uses the terms. You can see an example in the earlier J models.  In Section 4 (normal ops) of Manual # 1233 the it shows the best angle of climb at 69 KIAS at max gross. In Section 5 (performance) in the max performance takeoff table, it's 66 KIAS with 15° flaps and the gear down.

But you';ll notice the difference is not huge.

Thank you for pointing to my manual.  My 20F manual only gives 94 mph (82 kts) CAS for flaps up and gear up.  It's silent on weight.  The takeoff table is silent on speed. In the flight operations section, it has the following "Retract the flaps when the aircraft has cleared all obstacles and has gained an indicated airspeed of about 80 to 90 mph (69 to 78 knots)."  In any case, the actual angle of climb is observably better with the flaps down.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Derrickearly

[DCarlton]

2 minutes ago, Derrickearly said:

Thank you for pointing to my manual.  My 20F manual only gives 82 mph (71 kts) CAS for flaps up and gear up.  It's silent on weight.  The takeoff table is silent on speed. In the flight operations section, it has the following "Retract the flaps when the aircraft has cleared all obstacles and has gained an indicated airspeed of about 80 to 90 mph (69 to 78 knots)."  In any case, the actual angle of climb is observably better with the flaps down.

How quickly do your flaps retract?  My seem relatively quick.  I need to pull out my manual too; it's been a long time but I tend to let my speed build and wait until my speed approaches the flap airspeed limit then retract them.  Thanks for encouraging me to review my manual again.  :>. 67F

[midlifeflyer]

15 minutes ago, Derrickearly said:

It's silent on weight. 

In many cases, weight is not mentioned, especially in aircraft where there isn't a large realistic range and the speed is slow. But if there is only one speed (based on load, such as Vs, Vx and Vy)  it's at max gross. The formula is usually taught in the Va context but it applies to others as well:

Current V-speed = V-speed at Max Gross X SqRt (Current Weight/Max Gross)

Edited June 20, 2021 by midlifeflyer

[Derrickearly]

25 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

How quickly do your flaps retract?  My seem relatively quick.  I need to pull out my manual too; it's been a long time but I tend to let my speed build and wait until my speed approaches the flap airspeed limit then retract them.  Thanks for encouraging me to review my manual again.  :>. 67F

I guessing 2-3 seconds.  I usually leave the flaps deployed at the takeoff setting until I'm 400 to 600 feet agl and my airspeed is at least 100 kts.

[Hank]

59 minutes ago, Derrickearly said:

In any case, the actual angle of climb is observably better with the flaps down.

Is the climb actually faster? Check your VSI. I would expect the deck a great to be different, but the VSI a d airspeed will be the proof. Fly the same airspeed both ways, the VSI will show if the "angle of climb" is better, or if you're just noticing the deck angle.

[Derrickearly]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

Is the climb actually faster? Check your VSI. I would expect the deck a great to be different, but the VSI a d airspeed will be the proof. Fly the same airspeed both ways, the VSI will show if the "angle of climb" is better, or if you're just noticing the deck angle.

I'll have to wait until my flaps are repaired to conduct the flight test.  At least, they let you safely fly slower.

[A64Pilot]

Any small aircraft should climb better without flaps, if they wouldn’t then we would leave them down until we reached cruise altitude, better as in both Vx and Vy, but they enable slower speeds, speed reduction is their purpose

Flpas add drag of course and increase lift, but they increase drag more than lift, or again we wouldn’t retract them. (no free lunch) FAA says the purpose of flaps is so to slow an aircraft for landing, partial flaps of course allow you to takeoff at a slower airspeed too, speed correlates to required runway distance as acceleration rate is essentially the same, so T/O flaps settings allow a shorter runway 

Any flap setting decreases L/D ratio

Oh, and by increasing wing camber at the root, they also effectively “wash out” the wing, meaning that a stall is far more likely to occur at the wing root first and slowly progress to the tips, so a stall with flaps is much less likely to drop a wing.

Other than practice, there just isn’t any good reason that I can come up with under normal situation for no flap landings, if the cross winds are so severe as to require a no flap landing, I’ll likely find a runway that’s into the wind and call Uber.

‘But we should all practice no flap landings because if you fly long enough, eventually you will need to, even the guys with manual flaps.

Edited June 20, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, Derrickearly said:

Thank you for pointing to my manual.  My 20F manual only gives 82 mph (71 kts) CAS for flaps up and gear up.  It's silent on weight.  The takeoff table is silent on speed. In the flight operations section, it has the following "Retract the flaps when the aircraft has cleared all obstacles and has gained an indicated airspeed of about 80 to 90 mph (69 to 78 knots)."  In any case, the actual angle of climb is observably better with the flaps down.

Perhaps I was confused in your earlier post you said the “angle on climb out was much reduced and made life very interesting.”  I thought you were referring to pitch angle not angle of climb (rise over run). This may have confused me because flying with the flaps out tends to lower the nose in relation to direction of flight. In the manual for my 67F both Vx (94mph constant) and Vy (113mph decreasing with alt) are at gross weight, max power, no flaps and gear up.  Both Vx and Vy are reduced when the aircraft is dirty. 

 

 

[Derrickearly]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Perhaps I was confused in your earlier post you said the “angle on climb out was much reduced and made life very interesting.”  I thought you were referring to pitch angle not angle of climb (rise over run). This may have confused me because flying with the flaps out tends to lower the nose in relation to direction of flight. In the manual for my 67F both Vx (94mph constant) and Vy (113mph decreasing with alt) are at gross weight, max power, no flaps and gear up.  Both Vx and Vy are reduced when the aircraft is dirty. 

 

 

Yes, I was talking about rise over run or angle of climb.  Looks like I confused things further by misquoting Vx for my 20F.  It's 94 mph (82 kts). Just like yours.  Thank you for catching that!  How do I figure out what Vx is with 15 deg flaps?

Edited June 21, 2021 by Derrickearly

[Derrickearly]

17 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Any small aircraft should climb better without flaps, if they wouldn’t then we would leave them down until we reached cruise altitude, better as in both Vx and Vy, but they enable slower speeds, speed reduction is their purpose

Flpas add drag of course and increase lift, but they increase drag more than lift, or again we wouldn’t retract them. (no free lunch) FAA says the purpose of flaps is so to slow an aircraft for landing, partial flaps of course allow you to takeoff at a slower airspeed too, speed correlates to required runway distance as acceleration rate is essentially the same, so T/O flaps settings allow a shorter runway 

Any flap setting decreases L/D ratio

Oh, and by increasing wing camber at the root, they also effectively “wash out” the wing, meaning that a stall is far more likely to occur at the wing root first and slowly progress to the tips, so a stall with flaps is much less likely to drop a wing.

Other than practice, there just isn’t any good reason that I can come up with under normal situation for no flap landings, if the cross winds are so severe as to require a no flap landing, I’ll likely find a runway that’s into the wind and call Uber.

‘But we should all practice no flap landings because if you fly long enough, eventually you will need to, even the guys with manual flaps.

Angle of climb (AOC) could be a bit more complicated.  AOC = (T-D)/W   Drag is proportional to velocity squared, so reducing climb speed could help AOC.  Looks like I'll be doing some flight testing once my flaps are fixed.

[Shadrach]

14 hours ago, Derrickearly said:

Yes, I was talking about rise over run or angle of climb.  Looks like I confused things further by misquoting Vx for my 20F.  It's 94 mph (82 kts). Just like yours.  Thank you for catching that!  How do I figure out what Vx is with 15 deg flaps?

That's a good question to which I do not have the answer.  Stall speed drops by about 4mph at 15deg but I do not know if the same reduction can be applied to Vx.  The difference is likely small enough to not be very significant.  Why is it you want to climb with 15deg of flaps?  It's marginally less efficient with no real up side that I can see.

[Derrickearly]

36 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

That's a good question to which I do not have the answer.  Stall speed drops by about 4mph at 15deg but I do not know if the same reduction can be applied to Vx.  The difference is likely small enough to not be very significant.  Why is it you want to climb with 15deg of flaps?  It's marginally less efficient with no real up side that I can see.

My perception is that I get a better angle of climb for obstacle clearance. Also, I prefer to have more margin against stalling.