Mooney Down Warwick, NY (N72) 04-28-21

[cwaters]

14 minutes ago, smwash02 said:

@aviatorebI hope for the same.

Serious injury means any injury which: (1) Requires hospitalization for more than 48 hours, commencing within 7 days from the date of the injury was received; (2) results in a fracture of any bone (except simple fractures of fingers, toes, or nose); (3) causes severe hemorrhages, nerve, muscle, or tendon damage; (4) involves any internal organ; or (5) involves second- or third-degree burns, or any burns affecting more than 5 percent of the body surface.

so best case is like a broken arm?

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, cwaters said:

so best case is like a broken arm?

I suppose so - that would be the least bad on the serious list.

[cwaters]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

I suppose so - that would be the least bad on the serious list.

well I never thought I would say it but I guess I hope thats the case, so they can get back int he air soon.

[MIm20c]

Someone mentioned it was recently sold…did it have shoulder restraints?

[neilpilot]

Owner is an infrequent MSer named Andrew, user name SLowride, based at N72.

[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, neilpilot said:

Owner is an infrequent MSer named Andrew, user name SLowride, based at N72.

Do you know how he is doing?

[neilpilot]

33 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Do you know how he is doing?

No idea. I simply mentioned him based on the N# and his MS posts earlier this year.

[carusoam]

In case I missed sending @mike_elliott an invite...

Best regards,

-a-

[mike_elliott]

If anyone knows the pilot, please reach out to me

[PilotFun101]

He had partial power loss.  Could not get out of ground effects.  He tried to accelerate over the lake but hit the trees near the old prison.  If anyone knows Warwick airport its a short runway so once your in ground effects your pretty much committed. The Mooney's roll cage kept the fuselage intact and pretty much saved his life.  He climbed out the door with hardly any injuries. He is recovering at home with some back pain. Mooney is a safe plane and we should be glad to be part of this amazing airplane.    

[aviatoreb]

57 minutes ago, PilotFun101 said:

He had partial power loss.  Could not get out of ground effects.  He tried to accelerate over the lake but hit the trees near the old prison.  If anyone knows Warwick airport its a short runway so once your in ground effects your pretty much committed. The Mooney's roll cage kept the fuselage intact and pretty much saved his life.  He climbed out the door with hardly any injuries. He is recovering at home with some back pain. Mooney is a safe plane and we should be glad to be part of this amazing airplane.    

Thanks for the information.  Do you happen to know anything about his condition?

The roll cage is a life saver, especially in this case.  But not to be too confident in the fact that there is also just a good dose of good luck in some outcomes, there was no fire, thank goodness, and there was no cement wall in front of his final resting spot.  Stuck in ground effect on a short runway sounds like quite a scary ride.  Knock on wood and bless the good luck of this pilot.

[kortopates]

He had partial power loss.  Could not get out of ground effects.  He tried to accelerate over the lake but hit the trees near the old prison.  If anyone knows Warwick airport its a short runway so once your in ground effects your pretty much committed. The Mooney's roll cage kept the fuselage intact and pretty much saved his life.  He climbed out the door with hardly any injuries. He is recovering at home with some back pain. Mooney is a safe plane and we should be glad to be part of this amazing airplane.    

it’s back to the 50/70 rule, every pilot needs to incorporate this basic best practice which provides protection from most of these kinds of problems.

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/performance/how-to-use-the-50-70-rule-of-thumb-for-your-takeoff-this-summer/


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[Skates97]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

it’s back to the 50/70 rule, every pilot needs to incorporate this basic best practice which provides protection from most of these kinds of problems.

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/performance/how-to-use-the-50-70-rule-of-thumb-for-your-takeoff-this-summer/


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Every takeoff pick a spot and say out loud, "I should be off the ground by xxx or at least have xxx speed or we are stopping straight ahead." Saying it out loud helps cement it in as to what you are going to do.

[EricJ]

The sectional says N72 is 2100 feet long, and the lake starts pretty much right at the end of the runway.   I'm not sure the 50/70 rule would be practical there.

 

 

[aviatoreb]

21 minutes ago, EricJ said:

The sectional says N72 is 2100 feet long, and the lake starts pretty much right at the end of the runway.   I'm not sure the 50/70 rule would be practical there.

 

 

Which begs the question - what is the minimal runway length that admits a 50/70?  For each model.  Or maybe for each individual airplane.

[kortopates]

40 minutes ago, EricJ said:

The sectional says N72 is 2100 feet long, and the lake starts pretty much right at the end of the runway.   I'm not sure the 50/70 rule would be practical there.

 

 

This is exactly what its for, any short runway. If you don't have 70% of rotate speed as you come up to the middle of the runway its time to abort takeoff. You'll still have time to stop and then consider next options based on what you might think is the issue. 2150' is ordinarily not an issue in a C model at 540' elev, but this day was different for wahetever reason. But as pilots we need to be primed to make the abort decision before passing the halfway. Of course we have no clue what actually happened in this takeoff so not passing judgement on this specific incident - just repeating a best practcie which should be apart of every emergency pre-departure brief or we won't be prepared to take necessary action in time.  

Most of the older pilots never got this kind of training in their private pilot training (I certainly didn't), but most of the more recently trained private pilots do - for good reason.

[EricJ]

22 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Which begs the question - what is the minimal runway length that admits a 50/70?  For each model.  Or maybe for each individual airplane.

Or wind or DA conditions or... 

 

[A64Pilot]

Sometimes your off the ground and committed before the loss of power. I was reading of an accident at my home airfield with a Bonanza that I believe fit that bill, it seems he took off leaned out is my guess, the passenger died on impact, the pilot burned to death. I base that guess on that the levers were intact and the mixture was pulled about an inch out.

I figured that out by the toxicology report, he had 17% CO in his blood, and I was thinking how do you get that much CO in your bloodstream taking off? Then thought you get it by burning to death.

Hell of a way to go

[bradp]

On 4/29/2021 at 9:30 AM, aviatoreb said:

With a wing torn off, I can't help but think it is good fortune there was no fire.

Unless there ain’t no gas ...

In this situation potential water contamination   

[carusoam]

One of my favorite airports 5B6 Falmouth MA,  runway length is 2,300’

At the halfway point you are either flying, or stopping...

The 50/70 rule rocks...  but it also implies using up the rest of the runway getting off the ground...   while the trees start growing larger in the windshield...

If running out of runway is a concern... a GU landing only uses a few hundred feet...

 

The hard part...  diagnosing power problems during the brief T/O roll...

A stuck valve can remove most of the excess power needed to climb...  if you are good with your JPI you might notice a cold/missing bar on the graph...

Always check your performance requirements...  WnB, DA, length required...

Short runways have a bit of discomfort that goes with them...  

Getting 310hp helps with the fly/stop decision, as does cold OAT, and lighter GToWs...

PP thoughts about my Mooney on my airport...

It would be great to have this Mooney pilot join us to discuss his experience...

So much can be learned with a great conversation... 

Best regards,

-a-

[PeteMc]

Sometimes things don't show up right away on the JPI.  My one emergency landing did not show anything on the JPI, or any of the other instruments, until well after it was decided we were landing NOW.

So even if he did have a JPI and it was in his scan, still may not have told him anything.

AND...  Has anyone heard any more real details?  Spoke to a friend that lives in Warwick and there are lots of "facts" floating around from non pilots.  Just curious if anyone has learned more from the Pilot or anyone at the airport that has real facts/knowledge.  Maybe a potential Learning Experience for us?

And he better damn well log that LANDING!  Did a great job and DID walk away from it.

 

ADDED:  One correction.  My JPI didn't show anything at first.  After I did a few more scans of everything it did show the dead cylinder, but by then the decision was already made to land.  So I didn't mean to imply that the JPI does not give good info.  But it can only show you what the sensors tell it.  And sometimes there's a lag.

Edited May 1, 2021 by PeteMc

[Shadrach]

On 4/30/2021 at 4:58 PM, aviatoreb said:

Which begs the question - what is the minimal runway length that admits a 50/70?  For each model.  Or maybe for each individual airplane.

For an E model book landing ground roll is 600ft, so 50/70 take off abort should be very doable even at a 2100” strip. I use a 1800” strip regularly and I like to be airborne by mid point. I limit myself to 2300lbs for strips under 2000’ unless it’s the dead of winter.

[gsxrpilot]

With the turbo, I know if I'm making full power within the first 100 ft. 

I took off once without full power. I knew something was wrong but didn't really recognize it until about 5000 ft. I turned around and returned to the field. The induction boot had come off and folded over blocking the turbo. Now I know. With everything full forward, I'll feel the turbo come on and verify full MP within the first 100 ft. or so.

[0TreeLemur]

On 4/30/2021 at 4:31 PM, kortopates said:

 

Most of the older pilots never got this kind of training in their private pilot training (I certainly didn't), but most of the more recently trained private pilots do - for good reason.

Paul- This describes me.  PPL in '81. 

Q: How do you teach people to gauge the runway mid-point?   When not working to maintain centerline and counter any crosswind, and looking at the ASI, I'm making quick glances at the engine monitor to make sure the engine is producing full power.  Trying to estimate an un-marked half-way point seems like it would be really difficult.   What's the trick?

-Fred

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Paul- This describes me.  PPL in '81. 

Q: How do you teach people to gauge the runway mid-point?   When not working to maintain centerline and counter any crosswind, and looking at the ASI, I'm making quick glances at the engine monitor to make sure the engine is producing full power.  Trying to estimate an un-marked half-way point seems like it would be really difficult.   What's the trick?

-Fred

Fred, its not difficult but many think of this totally backwards as you sort of are.

First almost all of us have a safe taxi way diagram to allow us to see the runway environment and ideally pick a crossing runway or taxiway near the midpoint. Lacking any taxiway or cross runway, there is often structures or something off to the side to help pick halfway point. It doesn't have to be exact, the key though is that we decide to abort before the halway point.

Think of it this way, using my numbers, I'll rotate at 67 kts, so I'll use 50 kts (rounded up from 47 kts) as my required speed to continue on beyond the halfway. So the focus is really on getting to 50 kts, not as much on the halfway unless its really that close. But as soon as I have 50 kts I am committed.  If I am approaching the midpoint, not at it but approaching it, and I am not at 50 kts its time to abort. If I wait to the halfway and then decide to abort its too late.

For most cases its an easy decsion and this will prevent us from taking off from a runway we'd expect not to be an issue but not generating full power that day for any reason. For the day we're taking off from a short runway that we need not only our full power but every foot, we need to be primed BEFORE reaching the halfway point to pull power and start breaking if their is any doubt we won't have 50 before the halfway.

A lot more words to describe the thought process but many pilots think about it kinda backwards, so this is a good question which deserves detail - I hope the above clarifies how to approach it so the decision is not made too late.

BTW - the above is only near half of what a new private pilot is taught in the form of emergency pre-departure brief. Another key part is how much altitude you need MSL before turning back to the airport in an engine out scenario and which runway you are going to turn back too depending on which way you'll make your crosswind. 

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by kortopates