G3X Upgrade with EIS or another route.

[PJClark]

Not sure...but I thinkmI saw a pic late last year od a DMax panel with 2 10.6 G3x's and no G5.  You'd have to confirm somehow

[Dieselsnplanes]

3 hours ago, MIm20c said:

It’s hard to comment on price because there could be many factors involved. However, the G5’s/JPI price looks high to me. You might want to price out the components and see how much they’re changing for labor. 

Well I emailed back asking to do panel, G3X with EIS and apparently you MUST run a G5 with the G3X. Price is now $40k. What shocks me the most is the 5000% markup on cutting a panel. $150 in machine work is $6500 apparently. I am price shopping a bit. 

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, Dieselsnplanes said:

Well I emailed back asking to do panel, G3X with EIS and apparently you MUST run a G5 with the G3X. Price is now $40k. What shocks me the most is the 5000% markup on cutting a panel. $150 in machine work is $6500 apparently. I am price shopping a bit. 

The G3X requires a backup AI, but it doesn't have to be a G5.

[PT20J]

17 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

But even under normal circumstances. 98% of the time, the autopilot flies the plane and I'm the Flight Engineer monitoring and continually tuning the engine.

Gee Paul, do you ever get to look outside? 

[Davidv]

3 hours ago, Dieselsnplanes said:

Well I emailed back asking to do panel, G3X with EIS and apparently you MUST run a G5 with the G3X. Price is now $40k. What shocks me the most is the 5000% markup on cutting a panel. $150 in machine work is $6500 apparently. I am price shopping a bit. 

That sounds like Sarasota Avionics who quoted me 300 hrs for my panel.  They wanted $7K for a new panel as well.  My shop did the whole thing powder coated for a third of that.

[Ragsf15e]

3 hours ago, Dieselsnplanes said:

Well I emailed back asking to do panel, G3X with EIS and apparently you MUST run a G5 with the G3X. Price is now $40k. What shocks me the most is the 5000% markup on cutting a panel. $150 in machine work is $6500 apparently. I am price shopping a bit. 

This is not surprising, but does seem high.  Taking out and reinstalling a panel with all the associated wiring is big.  Can definitely be done cheaper, but many places charge about $3-5k.

It’s also why the G5 / EDM route may be much cheaper as the equipment is less and it can possibly fit in the existing panel, thus removing equipment and labor costs as well.

[Dieselsnplanes]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

This is not surprising, but does seem high.  Taking out and reinstalling a panel with all the associated wiring is big.  Can definitely be done cheaper, but many places charge about $3-5k.

It’s also why the G5 / EDM route may be much cheaper as the equipment is less and it can possibly fit in the existing panel, thus removing equipment and labor costs as well.

I understand the profit/cost, I own a diesel specialty shop and I completely understand profit. However we usually do high volume moderate profit, not small volume huge profit. We do a lot of custom fabrication installs and wiring on systems including stand alone ECMs for diesel applications. More wiring that’s in any of these 1960s planes. Not just a repair facility. Aviation unfortunately seems like the auto body industry, lower hourly rate but large hourly charges. I can’t bring myself to pay $6500 for a panel I had made in it now through one of our contacts for $150 powder coated. The rest I’m fine with and they have a good price on the units. When I redid my insulation in the plane I was quoted 60hrs. I took my time and my AP agreed to sign off on it and it took me a weekend or 19hrs as I timed it. 25/30hrs I would of gladly just paid for it done. 

[Ragsf15e]

6 minutes ago, Dieselsnplanes said:

I understand the profit/cost, I own a diesel specialty shop and I completely understand profit. However we usually do high volume moderate profit, not small volume huge profit. We do a lot of custom fabrication installs and wiring on systems including stand alone ECMs for diesel applications. More wiring that’s in any of these 1960s planes. Not just a repair facility. Aviation unfortunately seems like the auto body industry, lower hourly rate but large hourly charges. I can’t bring myself to pay $6500 for a panel I had made in it now through one of our contacts for $150 powder coated. The rest I’m fine with and they have a good price on the units. When I redid my insulation in the plane I was quoted 60hrs. I took my time and my AP agreed to sign off on it and it took me a weekend or 19hrs as I timed it. 25/30hrs I would of gladly just paid for it done. 

Totally agree.  Unfortunately that’s the state of aviation.  If you can do some of it yourself, you can save a ton of cash.  @gsxrpilot built his own panel for about what you’re talking about.

[PT20J]

It is really hard to compare labor costs because the workmanship is a great unknown.  When I bought my M20J, the previous owner had a GNS 430W, Aspen EFD 1000, and a GI 106A connected to a KX 165 for Nav 2 installed. This replaced the original KLN 90, Argus 5000, KCS 55/ HSI and a KX 155. So, there was a fair amount of rip and replace. I looked in the tail where they had mounted the Aspen ACU and the wiring looked very good. 

But since I’ve owned it I have found they made a mess behind the panel. Cut wires unterminated and unlabeled, bad crimps on connector pins, messy wire runs, insufficient service loops on wire harnesses, wrong back shell on the connector for the ACK encoder so nothing was holding it on but the friction of the pins. All this has caused some annoying intermittent failures and it has cost me time and money to sort it out.

The point is that it takes time to do a good job. Now I’m not saying that some shops don’t gouge. But I’ll pay a fair pricefor quality workmanship. 

Skip

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

It is really hard to compare labor costs because the workmanship is a great unknown.  When I bought my M20J, the previous owner had a GNS 430W, Aspen EFD 1000, and a GI 106A connected to a KX 165 for Nav 2 installed. This replaced the original KLN 90, Argus 5000, KCS 55/ HSI and a KX 155. So, there was a fair amount of rip and replace. I looked in the tail where they had mounted the Aspen ACU and the wiring looked very good. 

But since I’ve owned it I have found they made a mess behind the panel. Cut wires unterminated and unlabeled, bad crimps on connector pins, messy wire runs, insufficient service loops on wire harnesses, wrong back shell on the connector for the ACK encoder so nothing was holding it on but the friction of the pins. All this has caused some annoying intermittent failures and it has cost me time and money to sort it out.

The point is that it takes time to do a good job. Now I’m not saying that some shops don’t gouge. But I’ll pay a fair pricefor quality workmanship. 

Skip

I think this kind of workmanship behind the panel is much more common than we realize unfortunately.  

[PJClark]

7 hours ago, Dieselsnplanes said:

Well I emailed back asking to do panel, G3X with EIS and apparently you MUST run a G5 with the G3X. Price is now $40k. What shocks me the most is the 5000% markup on cutting a panel. $150 in machine work is $6500 apparently. I am price shopping a bit. 

That's plain nuts.  My G3X installed was $13,500.  G5 backup installed $3500.  EIS installed should not exceed $6000.  New panel $2800.  $25k maximum!

[Dieselsnplanes]

12 hours ago, PJClark said:

That's plain nuts.  My G3X installed was $13,500.  G5 backup installed $3500.  EIS installed should not exceed $6000.  New panel $2800.  $25k maximum!

You have an avionics shop you want to PM me for a quote? 

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, Dieselsnplanes said:

You have an avionics shop you want to PM me for a quote? 

It's AATG in Greeley, CO. We've talked about it a bunch around here.

[Dieselsnplanes]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

It's AATG in Greeley, CO. We've talked about it a bunch around here.

Thanks! 
 

When I get back from Sun N Fun I’ll reach out to them. Need the hours anyway! 

[ArtVandelay]

Example with JPI EDM 900

Did you buy flush mounts for G5 and JPI or did shop fabricate it?

If latter, why not flush mount the GFC 507 controller?

[MIm20c]

16 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Did you buy flush mounts for G5 and JPI or did shop fabricate it?

If latter, why not flush mount the GFC 507 controller?

Not, PJ but I can tell you first hand it was a TON of work to get everything machined and lined up perfectly. Add on the prep steps of bonding and flush riveting the standoffs for the “sub panel”.  The 507 has a very slight taper so the cutout has to be very tight to make it look seamless. 

[PJClark]

37 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

On 4/11/2021 at 5:35 PM, PJClark said:

 

Did you buy flush mounts for G5 and JPI or did shop fabricate it?

If latter, why not flush mount the GFC 507 controller?

No I bought nothing, shop did it all.

[Dieselsnplanes]

Decided to do a G3X with EIS, G5 and new left and right panels. Might add the transponder with the price I got. Have a few weeks to decide. I still think the price I got was too good to be true compared to the rest but I’ll see how it goes and seeing others have had good luck with them here gives me confidence! Thanks for all your help!

[Ragsf15e]

16 hours ago, Dieselsnplanes said:

Decided to do a G3X with EIS, G5 and new left and right panels. Might add the transponder with the price I got. Have a few weeks to decide. I still think the price I got was too good to be true compared to the rest but I’ll see how it goes and seeing others have had good luck with them here gives me confidence! Thanks for all your help!

Awesome!  You’re gonna love it!

What autopilot do you have?  That setup kind of locks you into a current stec or gfc500 (which is awesome).

Good luck with the upgrade!

[MIm20c]

Since you found a reasonable shop I’d add the money for a gfc upgrade...it will be a huge step up from your wing leveler and there will never be a cheaper time. I’d pass on the transponder upgrade. You can add a gdl 50r to your g3x and get traffic and weather info on that display. 

[kris_adams]

Just catching up...I have the G3X with EIS and have been very happy.  I was going to suggest doing a 345R for ADSB tied in with your G3x and 750.  I love having it tied in and not taking up any panel space.  The multitude of functions of the G3x take a while to learn but it still amazes me.  I think you'll be very happy. -K

[Dieselsnplanes]

8 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Awesome!  You’re gonna love it!

What autopilot do you have?  That setup kind of locks you into a current stec or gfc500 (which is awesome).

Good luck with the upgrade!

Just wing leveler still, plane was completely bare bones when I got it, even had a Loran from 1990 in it. Going to wait to add an AP. Flying for 10+Hrs on multiple legs It keeps me paying attention. 

[gsxrpilot]

14 hours ago, Dieselsnplanes said:

Just wing leveler still, plane was completely bare bones when I got it, even had a Loran from 1990 in it. Going to wait to add an AP. Flying for 10+Hrs on multiple legs It keeps me paying attention. 

Note that an autopilot will provide the largest increase in value to your airplane. We're seeing the values of airplanes being sold diverging. If you have an autopilot, the values are going up quickly and selling immediately, if you don't have an autopilot, they're actually getting harder and harder to sell.

[Dieselsnplanes]

On 4/16/2021 at 11:39 AM, gsxrpilot said:

Note that an autopilot will provide the largest increase in value to your airplane. We're seeing the values of airplanes being sold diverging. If you have an autopilot, the values are going up quickly and selling immediately, if you don't have an autopilot, they're actually getting harder and harder to sell.

I will add one later, I am doing this completely with cash and the stack is being reduced quickly. Once I obtain all my ratings then I can add it. Like I said before I don't plan on getting rid of it. I'd buy into or time in a twin and keep the F model just because it serves everything I can think of now and for the future.

[Dieselsnplanes]

Planes at avionics and it’s getting everything installed but the asked me to upgrade the 2nd radio and add a 2 axis GFC500 to the install and I’m curious if it’s worth it for another $8,500. I haven’t flown with an autopilot and have gone from Florida to Vermont and the north east a few times without one. Approaches I’ve flown by hand and I haven’t have thought to add one. Looking for opinions.