Is it a sin to buy a Cirrus?

[aviatoreb]

2 minutes ago, Hank said:

Is that you in a few decades, Mr. Bicycle Enthusiast? Getting help pedaling around the neighborhood??  

Indeed - 

My wife and I already have a tandem ...we got on our tenth anniversary and we are now through 26 years and the tires still hold air.  If they get a flat, I figure we can patch them.

[Mufflerbearing]

Interesting that this would come up.  This last week, I flew my wife down to Scottsdale AZ to be at the Barrett-Jackson auto auction.  In the middle of the grounds was a Cirrus under a large tent.  The first time I went to talk to the salesmen there, all 4 of them, I asked some simple questions.  What is the speed and burn rate?  They gave 165kts at 18.5 gpm.  I was also told that burning LOP was not recommended by the manufacturer which I had never heard.  I then asked, what is the UL?  The visual response on their faces represented confusion as if I was speaking a different language.  With some more questions, it became very clear that these guys take orders but do not fly nor really know their product.  I came back the next day in the morning to which I met Chuck.  He is a pilot and well versed in these planes and was very personable.  This particular plane goes all over the place but has no engine and the wings are just pinned to the fuselage.  This plane will never fly, but is good for show.  As we left him, I turned to my wife and said, he reminded me of Chuck Finley as we are watching Burn Notice.  She said that I just beat her to that comment.

My point is that in this world, there are salesmen and order takers.  For any company to succeed in business, salesmen are needed.  After reading a thread on here about how Mooney suffered at shows with lack of interest in talking to customers, this was obviously a problem.  Hopefully if they start building planes again, the salesmen would be diehard mooniacs and not someone that decided to sell planes because selling womens shoes became too difficult.

On another note, I talked with a Cirrus owner about his plane.  I hadn't seen it for many months and thought that maybe he had sold it.  His 10 year chute repack was overdue and the plane became unairworthy.  It has been sitting in Colorado waiting for a back ordered chute for 3 months and still not sure when they can get one in.  So much for buying a newer plane from a company still in business and expecting good service or parts.

[carusoam]

The one thing I liked about Ci marketing...

They put a nearly real plane amongst the people...

State fairs are a big exposure for the plane for ordinary people with tons of dough...

-a-

[philiplane]

On 3/28/2021 at 9:10 PM, A64Pilot said:

 

They don’t hand fly well at all, they trim poorly, they are meant to be an auto pilot flown airplane, nothing wrong with that, just know it going in.

‘Then look at  what the parachute limits are, something like 53 to 140 kts in straight and level flight?, so pretty much for an engine failure and not much else?

I've flown, instructed, and maintained at least 80 different plane types. Several thousand hours worth of post maintenance test flights, and rigging check flights.  So, the comment that a Cirrus "doesn't hand fly well...or trims poorly" doesn't fit the plane at all. The only real difference is that elevator up travel is limited somewhat more than others, as part of the stall resistant design. Even so, I can land it at 72-74 knots, after an 83 knot final approach, and still be able to pull back and hold the nose up till it falls on its own around 50 knots. Not much different than any other plane. Commercial maneuvers are easy since the visibility is fantastic. The plane is well balanced, and the roll rate is average for the class. The trim motors are quite responsive so you learn to jab the switch rather than hold it, like you have to do with most planes whose trim motors move like molasses in January. 

[NJMac]

Not very impressed with the plane now that it's here at the airport for prebuy.  Fit and finish of the radio job is not congruent with $330k.  I'm not financing this so I've got big expectations for every dollar of mine that I'm handing over for this.  Lots of little things that make me think otherwise. 

I've got an existing arm injury and just holding the side stick in neutral elevator position for a minute or two, my arm is killing me. They claim it will be better in flight because I'll have it in trim.  We'll see.  I'm a taller dude, 6'1" ish and sitting in the seat where I'm comfortable with my pedal /foot placement, I've got a glare shield and headliner in the top 35% of my sight picture. 

I'm thinking I'm going to reject this plane.  Not sure brand C is for me 

[Davidv]

46 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Not very impressed with the plane now that it's here at the airport for prebuy.  Fit and finish of the radio job is not congruent with $330k.  I'm not financing this so I've got big expectations for every dollar of mine that I'm handing over for this.  Lots of little things that make me think otherwise. 

I've got an existing arm injury and just holding the side stick in neutral elevator position for a minute or two, my arm is killing me. They claim it will be better in flight because I'll have it in trim.  We'll see.  I'm a taller dude, 6'1" ish and sitting in the seat where I'm comfortable with my pedal /foot placement, I've got a glare shield and headliner in the top 35% of my sight picture. 

I'm thinking I'm going to reject this plane.  Not sure brand C is for me 

I haven’t spent much time in cirrus’s but they seem to use a lot of plastic in the interior.  Is that your feeling after being in the plane too?

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, NJMac said:

Not very impressed with the plane now that it's here at the airport for prebuy.  Fit and finish of the radio job is not congruent with $330k.  I'm not financing this so I've got big expectations for every dollar of mine that I'm handing over for this.  Lots of little things that make me think otherwise. 

I've got an existing arm injury and just holding the side stick in neutral elevator position for a minute or two, my arm is killing me. They claim it will be better in flight because I'll have it in trim.  We'll see.  I'm a taller dude, 6'1" ish and sitting in the seat where I'm comfortable with my pedal /foot placement, I've got a glare shield and headliner in the top 35% of my sight picture. 

I'm thinking I'm going to reject this plane.  Not sure brand C is for me 

Welcome back good buddy!  We thought we lost you there for a minute...

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, NJMac said:

Not very impressed with the plane now that it's here at the airport for prebuy.  Fit and finish of the radio job is not congruent with $330k.  I'm not financing this so I've got big expectations for every dollar of mine that I'm handing over for this.  Lots of little things that make me think otherwise. 

I've got an existing arm injury and just holding the side stick in neutral elevator position for a minute or two, my arm is killing me. They claim it will be better in flight because I'll have it in trim.  We'll see.  I'm a taller dude, 6'1" ish and sitting in the seat where I'm comfortable with my pedal /foot placement, I've got a glare shield and headliner in the top 35% of my sight picture. 

I'm thinking I'm going to reject this plane.  Not sure brand C is for me 

There’s a beautiful M22 for sale!  Just sayin....

[NJMac]

1 hour ago, Davidv said:

I haven’t spent much time in cirrus’s but they seem to use a lot of plastic in the interior.  Is that your feeling after being in the plane too?

Yes, there is a lot of plastic, IMO.  

The whole radio stack had a terrible fit / finish from the company who did the radios.  

The glare shield was busted up 

Crack in the attachment point for more plastic

Terrible fit / finish for the trim around the fuses.

Man, the head liners!  Ugh

And for a big name shop to have painted it 5 years back, it doesnt seem to be holding up well. 

[NJMac]

Once it was up in the air and trimmed out, it really did fly well, the side stick was honestly kinda nice - not better, but not bad either - and it didn't hurt my arm injury any more than flying my E in trim.  The seating position was pretty nice, the glare shield didn't seem to bother me as much in flight. 

It has the DFC90 digital AP and the straight and level is pretty dang cool.  I've never flown an autopilot and wow, that really is pretty sweet.  Didn't know what I was missing. 

I've just got to vent for a second.  I think this is so tacky.  While I'm checking out the plane with the broker's husband, he basically throws a CFI at me and says take it for an acceptance flight.  They ding me for 20 gals of gas and at the end of the flight, the guy hands me his venmo info and says he'd like $50.  For crying out loud.  They're looking at a 4.4% brokering fee on a $330k plane and they don't include that?  Maybe I'm being irrational but we provide exceptional customer service at my company and I expect the same in return. 

This same guy seemed to think the condition of the interior for a 16 year old plane was pretty normal.  In speaking with him, I got the vibe that the solution to most problems was simply spending some money.  I suppose that's how aviation works but maybe Im more CB Mooney than I realized.  Im on the fence about actually accepting it after that flight. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by NJMac

[Davidv]

4 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Once it was up in the air and trimmed out, it really did fly well, the side stick was honestly kinda nice - not better, but not bad either - and it didn't hurt my arm injury any more than flying my E in trim.  The seating position was pretty nice, the glare shield didn't seem to bother me as much in flight. 

It has the DFC90 digital AP and the straight and level is pretty dang cool.  I've never flown an autopilot and wow, that really is pretty sweet.  Didn't know what I was missing. 

I've just got to vent for a second.  I think this is so tacky.  While I'm checking out the plane with the broker's husband, he basically throws a CFI at me and says take it for an acceptance flight.  They ding me for 20 gals of gas and at the end of the flight, the guy hands me his venmo info and says he'd like $50.  For crying out loud.  They're looking at a 4.4% brokering fee on a $330k plane and they don't include that?  Maybe I'm being irrational but we provide exceptional customer service at my company and I expect the same in return. 

This same guy seemed to think the condition of the interior for a 16 year old plane was pretty normal.  In speaking with him, I got the vibe that the solution to most problems was simply spending some money.  I suppose that's how aviation works but maybe Im more CB Mooney than I realized.  Im on the fence about actually accepting it after that flight. 

I wouldn’t even think about buying a plane from a guy that cheap.  And yes, the interior looks a little too Hyundai for a $300k+ airplane 

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, NJMac said:

Once it was up in the air and trimmed out, it really did fly well, the side stick was honestly kinda nice - not better, but not bad either - and it didn't hurt my arm injury any more than flying my E in trim.  The seating position was pretty nice, the glare shield didn't seem to bother me as much in flight. 

It has the DFC90 digital AP and the straight and level is pretty dang cool.  I've never flown an autopilot and wow, that really is pretty sweet.  Didn't know what I was missing. 

I've just got to vent for a second.  I think this is so tacky.  While I'm checking out the plane with the broker's husband, he basically throws a CFI at me and says take it for an acceptance flight.  They ding me for 20 gals of gas and at the end of the flight, the guy hands me his venmo info and says he'd like $50.  For crying out loud.  They're looking at a 4.4% brokering fee on a $330k plane and they don't include that?  Maybe I'm being irrational but we provide exceptional customer service at my company and I expect the same in return. 

This same guy seemed to think the condition of the interior for a 16 year old plane was pretty normal.  In speaking with him, I got the vibe that the solution to most problems was simply spending some money.  I suppose that's how aviation works but maybe Im more CB Mooney than I realized.  Im on the fence about actually accepting it after that flight. 

I would run the other way.  If you still want a Cirrus - great.  Go buy another Cirrus.  From someone else.

The fuel bill for a test drive is a bad omen.  I would walk away from a deal on that alone.

Cheap ass Hundai interior on a $300 Ferrari wouldn't sell and neither should it on a $300k Cirrus.  That is a premium price on that year model and so expect a premium specimen and premium sale person if you must deal with a sales person.  I think if you want a 2005 Cirrus you can find a nicer one for a lot a lot less.  And they will include the fuel in the test drive.

[NJMac]

10 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

The fuel bill for a test drive is a bad omen.  I would walk away from a deal on that alone.

I'm glad I'm not alone in this.  That and $50 for the CFI's time really put me off in a big way. 

Thinking bigger picture, this is their MO.  I don't want to do business with them as a maintenance company like this either, which was one of the draws to Cirrus. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by NJMac

[KLRDMD]

Just now, NJMac said:

I'm glad I'm not alone in this.  That and $50 for the CFI's time really put me off in a big way. 

I don't blame you at all. That's not the kind of person I would want to deal with. There are plenty of good airplanes out there, and a handful of excellent brokers.

[aviatoreb]

54 minutes ago, NJMac said:

I'm glad I'm not alone in this.  That and $50 for the CFI's time really put me off in a big way. 

Thinking bigger picture, this is their MO.  I don't want to do business with them as a maintenance company like this either, which was one of the draws to Cirrus. 

Yeah anyone who doesn’t understand / or care / how tacky this behavior is when showing the plane then we can be sure as day that’s just the beginning and the rest of the sales process will be more and worse - and what kinda gotcha might the plane or sale be hiding.  No way even if the plane were perfect / which you are saying it is not.  
 

I recommend either go find another cirrus - or a real plane.  (Haha I threw that last dig in for fun.)

[Andy95W]

Jason- you should really take your wife to look at a Beech A36. She’ll love the size and you’ll love how it flies.  I flew one for a guy and his family (and instructed him in it).  With 6 seats, you get a lot of options.  With two of the rear seats removed, the kids can play on the floor in flight.  The big back doors to get to the rear cabin are incredibly useful for a family with baggage and kids.

No parachute, of course, but they are truly incredible airplanes, and if you can afford $300k for a Cirrus, you could get a really nice one.

[MIm20c]

With that type of treatment I’d look elsewhere.  The market is inflated but you can still be picky...in fact I think it’s especially important to demand quality right now. 

[Skates97]

45 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Jason- you should really take your wife to look at a Beech A36. She’ll love the size and you’ll love how it flies.  I flew one for a guy and his family (and instructed him in it).  With 6 seats, you get a lot of options.  With two of the rear seats removed, the kids can play on the floor in flight.  The big back doors to get to the rear cabin are incredibly useful for a family with baggage and kids.

No parachute, of course, but they are truly incredible airplanes, and if you can afford $300k for a Cirrus, you could get a really nice one.

My hangar neighbor has one. It is just him and his wife, they don't need a plane that size, and rarely take anyone with them flying, but they both love it so much they can't think of getting something different. If I needed something bigger than the Mooney it would be on my list.

[milotron]

4 hours ago, NJMac said:

Yes, there is a lot of plastic, IMO.  

The whole radio stack had a terrible fit / finish from the company who did the radios.  

The glare shield was busted up 

Crack in the attachment point for more plastic

Terrible fit / finish for the trim around the fuses.

Man, the head liners!  Ugh

And for a big name shop to have painted it 5 years back, it doesnt seem to be holding up well. 

Am I the only one who can't see these pictures?

I am surprised at how bad the condition of the plane sounds for it's age, but heard that they don't age well.

[Davidv]

Just now, Skates97 said:

My hangar neighbor has one. It is just him and his wife, they don't need a plane that size, and rarely take anyone with them flying, but they both love it so much they can't think of getting something different. If I needed something bigger than the Mooney it would be on my list.

If you are spending over  $300K aNd you’re concerned about UL (which is why you aren’t getting an acclaim). A TN Bonanza should def be on your list 

[NJMac]

59 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Jason- you should really take your wife to look at a Beech A36. She’ll love the size and you’ll love how it flies.  I flew one for a guy and his family (and instructed him in it).  With 6 seats, you get a lot of options.  With two of the rear seats removed, the kids can play on the floor in flight.  The big back doors to get to the rear cabin are incredibly useful for a family with baggage and kids.

No parachute, of course, but they are truly incredible airplanes, and if you can afford $300k for a Cirrus, you could get a really nice one.

I actually saw a few fiki A36s for sale recently.  A buddys dad has an A36 and has offered a flight.  I should take him up on that. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by NJMac

[Hank]

1 minute ago, NJMac said:

I actually saw a few fiki A36s for sale recently.  A buddys dad has an A36 and has offered a flight.  I should take him up on that. 

I have 3 flights PIC in a TN A36. Nice plane! 140 knots, > 1000 fpm on takeoff. My first landing was in a stiff crosswind (from the right, ~45°, 20+ knots). Had about 200 Mooney hours by then, so I just flew down and landed. 

That Bo also had factory AC. Seems it ran ~165 knots and 14 gph in autolean (+14% speed for +55% more fuel). But it cost > 3X what I paid for my C just before the 2008 debacle in DC . . . . And we won't mention parts or maintenance.

But watch Weight and Balance! The owner wouldn't let my small wife and I sit all the way in the back, he made us move up to the rear-facing seats. We totaled barely over 300 lbs between us.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, NJMac said:

I actually saw a few fiki A36s for sale recently.  A buddys dad has an A36 and has offered a flight.  I should take him up on that. 

A TNA36+TKS seems definitely on target for your needs and price range.  It seems like a kick-ass awesome airplane.

 

[carusoam]

2 hours ago, milotron said:

Am I the only one who can't see these pictures?

I am surprised at how bad the condition of the plane sounds for it's age, but heard that they don't age well.

My iPad is showing do not enter signs in place of the pics...

 

Additional data point...

My O, was half that price...

tanks were full up...

Went flying with Jimmy’s partner David as a demo...

As a sales guy, you get a lot of responsibility to meet customer expectations...

There aren’t a whole lot of $300k plane tire kickers, that make it past the qualification round... are there?

 

Best regards,

 -a-

[exM20K]

2 hours ago, NJMac said:

I actually saw a few fiki A36s for sale recently.  A buddys dad has an A36 and has offered a flight.  I should take him up on that. 

If such a plane were on the market when I bought my Acclaim in 2016, I would have been very interested.  After nearly five years with the acclaim, however, I’m glad I stayed with the Mooney...the devil I know, I guess. You will bump up against some limitation with any airplane (useful load in my case) but learn to work around those limitations. Buying and selling planes is expensive especially when measured against an occasional fuel stop.

Regarding the broker couple in OH, their behavior may be more an artifact of current market conditions than anything else.  When they sold for me (if it’s who I think you were dealing with) buyers were very carefully qualified as we had pegged the fully loaded cost of a demo flight at $1500 or so in new planes; those demo flights were half- or full-day affairs with a lot more than just flying.  Stuff is selling in hours or days now, so it’s a different process  now and probably a moment in time when it’s better to be a seller than a buyer.

It’s good you were able to fly the SR22.  I found it impossible to trim for hands-off cruise, but maybe it was something I was doing wrong or a mis-rigged plane.

Good luck with your purchase.

-Dan