Calling All Experts! First Time Mooney Buyer Needs Help!

[BobCW]

Hello Mooney Space Community! Apologies in advance, this is a lengthy post and I will be asking for your help. I am a long-time reader, but now since I am in the market to purchase, I decided it was time to create an account. I also went ahead and donated to the site to hopefully show my thankfulness for any advice that I may receive. From what I’ve seen this is an extremely passionate and helpful community. 

Ok, so on to brass tacks! Based on my research and requirements I am considering 1965-1980 M20E/F/J Models. I would also consider a 1965 or newer C Model with 201 upgrades, but I am preferential to the 200hp models. The Budget we have is $90,000 (or 90 Aviation Monetary Units as I've heard it called here). Ideally, I would like to purchase an aircraft priced <70AMU so that I can enhance one of the secondary criteria listed below. 

My Background:
I am a U.S. Army Helicopter Pilot with 560.2 Hours TT (48.7 in Airplanes). I currently hold my Commercial Helicopter, Instrument Helicopter, Private ASEL, and Sport ASES ratings. I plan to use the aircraft to complete my Airplane Instrument. While I have wanted an Airplane ever since finishing flight school, I have not been in a position for ownership until now. I have chosen to remain on Active Duty for at least the next five years, so my financial situation is very stable. I will also be stationed in the same location over that period, which is what really got the wife on board!

My Mission:
Fast, fuel efficient, reliable, IFR cross country aircraft to move my family on 1.5-3 hour flights throughout the Southeastern United States. Mooney delivers on everything I need, which is why I have chosen to allocate my AMU’s towards an M20! Also, I want to mention that Useful Load is of particular interest to me since I will be flying my wife and small children around (with luggage). I know (or at least I’ve read) that Mooney’s can vary greatly on this figure. Extended fuel tanks are not of additional value to me based on my current mission.

How Can You Help?
Since I am very new to both GA and Aircraft Ownership, I need your expertise in two distinct categories:

1. Primary and Secondary Airplane Purchase Consideration Criteria 
2. Airplane Review/Purchase Plan

The questions I am trying to answer are what have I missed? What am I not considering? What should I remove? I am flexible on everything listed below. An aircraft that has 1,200 Hours SMOH but has flown 200 hours in the last year would be preferable to one with 900 Hours that flew 20.

Primary Criteria:

• <1,000 Hours SMOH
• Recent Flight Time
• Not Excessively High Airframe TT ( >6,500 Hours)
• No Corrosion
• Old, Limited, or No Damage History – Gear up Landing in the 80’s that has had a MOH since doesn’t concern me, but recent unproven major damage does.
• IFR Certified
• Tank Bladder or Sealed Tanks
• No AD Prop
• *WAAS GPS (See Secondary Criteria Avionics/Panel)
• *Autopilot (See Secondary Criteria Avionics/Panel)

Secondary Criteria:
As I mentioned in the beginning, from my research I can only get two of the three secondary criteria, while remaining under budget. I also want to clarify that I recognize that, with the except of paint condition, these are not very important items. But since these are my AMU’s, I am going to be picky and purchase an aircraft that not only meets the mission, but looks good doing it! Also my parents and in-laws completely and solely judge the “safeness” of the aircraft off the look. Remember that I am only looking to “check” two of these three boxes. The intended purchase price of 55AMU-70AMU would leave 20-35AMU in the budget to address the remaining area.

1. Exterior – I am a plain guy and I want a no-frills paint job. Green, Baby Blue, Brown, Orange are no-go’s at this station. A simple white base with Red, Blue, or Grey accents would be just fine. The paint doesn’t need to be that new, just in relatively good condition 7/10. I probably wouldn’t do any speed mods myself, but it’s a nice bonus if they are on the aircraft.
2. Interior – Simplicity is once again the key here. I am looking for an interior that has at least been redone in the 2000’s. Tan, Grey, or Black scheme would be fine. I would like the wall, headliner, carpet to match the seats. Plus one for Mooney Eagle stitching on the headrests. There are plenty of examples from Aero Comfort or Airtex that would fit the bill and I would likely use one of those two providers if this was an area that needed attention.
3. Avionics/Panel – First off, I’m not looking to get my dream panel. I am simply looking to build upon what’s already in the dash. Let me start by telling you what I would like to do in a perfect world. Custom Fabricated Flat Panel that features the removal of the vacuum system and minimizes as many gauges as possible. Install a G3X Touch (VSI/HSI and Moving Map), G5 VSI, Garmin GPS (GNC 355/GNX375/GTN600Xi), Flight Stream 510, GFC 500 Autopilot, and Engine Monitor. With that setup I would be able to push flight plans from my iPad to the GPS and fly coupled routes/approaches. Later I would need to add a Garmin transponder and second Garmin comm so that everything could be controlled through the G3X Touch. If the aircraft already has a solid functioning AP that could interface with Garmin, then I could skip the GFC500 since the remaining Garmin avionics alone are already in the ballpark of 20-25AMU. As I mentioned before, I am not looking for that wishlist, just an aircraft with something that I can reuse. An AP, JPI, GPS, or G5 would go a long way towards my panel upgrade. I’ve seen a couple aircraft with a host of previous generation avionics. While those would be great in the present, the cost of those aircraft leave me with little (or nothing) left in the budget. I believe I would rather get a standard six pack aircraft and build from there, rather than paying for something that isn’t forward compatible like the current generation. 

Here are a Few Airplanes Currently on the Market that Seem Worthy of Consideration:

1. 1967 M20F - This is GMax Aircraft by Jimmy (which from what I've read is a really good thing). It has some speed mods and meets the primary criteria. I'm not crazy about the paint which is in average or less than average condition. The interior styling is great, but the front seats would have to be addressed. The panel has some nice items, including a GNX375 to build a new panel off of.
2. 1965 M20E - The oldest plane on the list but great fresh 2020 paint and my favorite interior on the list. It has low time since overhaul and relatively low time on the airframe (this is probably the most troublesome thing). Brittain PC 2 Axis (Maxwell 2011) and an MVP-50 Engine Monitor. No damage history.
3. 1967 M20F - Fresh 2019 paint. Interior would need to be redone. Low time engine and airframe (like the #2 short-body). It has a Garmin 480 WAAS, which is nice. I suppose I could rethink the avionics upgrade and maybe included the 480 or sell it.
4. 1970 M20F - In Contract 2/15/21
5. 1977 M20J - In Canada and outside of my SMOH criteria, but it is the newest plane I've seen in my price range (and a J Model too). It has a S-TEC 50 and older Digital Engine Monitoring Gauge. Paint is great and interior meets the bill.
6. 1976 M20F - Doesn't meet any of the three secondary criteria. Paint is "Challenged" and interior (although within the last 10 years) is not my preference at all. The nice thing is that it's another GMax and it meets the important primary criteria (and it has speed mods).

#1-4 are clearly ahead of #5/6, with #1/2 and #3/4 hard to separate respectively.  

Airplane Review/Purchase Plan:

• Finalize my Pre-Approval for Financing with AOPA.
• Review Airplane Candidate History Here.
• Review Flight Recency from Flight Aware.
• Check VREF Value through AOPA.
• Inquire with Seller.
• Obtain Seller Approval for PPI at Closest MSC pending Logbook Review – I am expecting to spend $1,500-$2,000 on the PPI. 
• Obtain Digital Aircraft, Engine, and Prop Logs from Seller.
• Send Logs (+$250) to Laura at Southwest Texas Aviation – I am assuming they would pull all the applicable Ads from Here.
• Use Aero-Space Reports for Official Title/History Reports – Not sure is this discounted $95 package offered through AOPA is needed?
• Schedule PPI at closest MSC (with recent experience) pending successful Log/Title/History Review.
• Draft PPI Checklist for MSC with any concern areas taken from the SWTA Report.
• AOPA Legal for Purchase Agreement
• AOPA Legal for LLC Establishment – Personal preference here, but let me any downsides or bad experiences with having an business “own” the aircraft.
• Aero-Space Escrow Service though AOPA.
• Depending on when the next Annual/100 Hour is due, potentially proceed with one or both of those inspections.
• Obtain Insurance – Considering all options, but I’ve read good things about Parker from Airspeed Insurance.
• Aircraft Registration.

As you can tell from list above, I am leaning relatively hard on AOPA. I am not sure what everyone’s feelings are about their services, but for an inexperienced owner like myself, their consolidation of resources adds value, even if the individual services aren’t the market-best. I am, however, completely open to using other vendors.

If you made it this far, thank you! I look forward to your feedback and hope that I’ve demonstrated through my research how serious I am about becoming part of this community
 

[carusoam]

Hey!

Welcome aboard Bob.

Thank you for your service.

Thanks for helping to keep the lights on around here.

Stand by while everyone reviews your request...

Great first post!

Plenty of detail to go on...

We have several helicopter pilots around here...

I had a short body Mooney, until my kids reached about 10 years old...  we learned enough about GA to turn it into more of a lifestyle...  

Go MS!

Is that your daily driver in your avatar pic?

Best regards,

-a-

[BobCW]

1 minute ago, carusoam said:

Is that your daily driver in your avatar pic?

@carusoam It sure is!

I’m currently a UH-60 Black Hawk MEDEVAC driver. Unfortunately, I don’t get to fly it daily. I will be transitioning to the mighty Chinook later this year though!

Also I’m realizing that my post is probably WAY to long, so again I apologize. I should have broken it up. Partial answers/opinions are perfectly fine!

[hammdo]

I nominated BobCW be Christen ‘Carusoam II’!

Great detailed list - and bullet points!

Don

[jaylw314]

I used Aerospace Reports for escrow and title services.  I imagine the majority of peeps here on MS didn't involve an escrow service with their purchase, but it's common enough that sellers should not be balking.  They were helpful and their expense was nominal in the big picture.

I'd suggest staying away from J's.  They are somewhat overvalued if you are looking for a forever plane.  If you plan to own for a time and upgrade again later, it might be ok.

FWIW, it's ALWAYS more cost efficient to buy a plane that already has the stuff you're looking for than to buy a basic plane and upgrade it yourself.  If you have specific requirement that you will install if the plane doesn't have them, then you should look more favorably on a candidate aircraft that already has it installed.

Opinions here vary, but if you're the type to be already planning this systematically instead of impulsively, I'd suggest forgoing any discussion of the annual in lieu of a satisfactory pre-purchase inspection from a 3rd party mechanic.  You just want an aircraft in annual at the time of purchase.  Since you're probably going to go balls out with the first annual with a mechanic or shop that YOU trust, it makes no sense to place a premium on a plane with a recent annual.  Likewise, it makes the contract much more complex and risky to take on part of the cost of an annual during the purchase contract.

Edited February 15, 2021 by jaylw314

[ArtVandelay]

I'd suggest staying away from J's.  They are somewhat overvalued if you are looking for a forever plane.  If you plan to own for a time and upgrade again later, it might be ok.

FWIW, it's ALWAYS more cost efficient to buy a plane that already has the stuff you're looking for than to buy a basic plane and upgrade it yourself.

Planes that don’t sell are overvalued. Js are classics, like the Ferrari 308/328 or Porsche 911, they always will have a premium. Here on MS, they are the first model to be considered modern.

That said, OP is on the low end of the scale for Js for your budget, I would consider F if you want the extra room.

A good rule when buying an airplane, keep at least 10% in reserve, so if your limit is $90,000, I would not spend more than $81,000 to buy the plane. Leaving $9000 or more in the bank for upgrades/unexpected repairs.

If you want a forever plane, upgrading it yourself is the way to go because it’s highly unlikely you’ll find a plane that has everything you want.

[BobCW]

5 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

 

I used Aerospace Reports for escrow and title services.  I imagine the majority of peeps here on MS didn't involve an escrow service with their purchase, but it's common enough that sellers should not be balking.  They were helpful and their expense was nominal in the big picture.

 

@jaylw314 thanks for sharing! What exactly are the benefits of using an escrow service (better yet, what is the most reason for using it)? Just to show the buyer you are not a tire kicker or hold the plane while you perform the PPI? 

5 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

If you have specific requirement that you will install if the plane doesn't have them, then you should look more favorably on a candidate aircraft that already has it installed.

Exactly! Given the inventory that I’ve seen (and my price range) I will not be able to get everything that I want. Ideally I would like to find something that meets the primary criteria and the interior/exterior secondary criteria in addition to having something that I could reuse in a panel upgrade. 

5 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I'd suggest forgoing any discussion of the annual in lieu of a satisfactory pre-purchase inspection

I intend to complete a PPI no matter when the previous annual was completed. I have seen this topic heavily debated on here, but I look at it from a financial risk mitigation standpoint to protect my investment from a catastrophic loss. Depending on how close the next annual is to due at the time of the PPI, I will probably elect to roll the PPI into an annual for some concurrent cost savings.

[BobCW]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

A good rule when buying an airplane, keep at least 10% in reserve, so if your limit is $90,000, I would not spend more than $81,000 to buy the plane.

@ArtVandelay solid advice! I am hoping to stay under $70,000 to leave room for my first annual and upgrades.

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

If you want a forever plane, upgrading it yourself is the way to go because it’s highly unlikely you’ll find a plane that has everything you want.

That is exactly what I’ve seen. While I’m not committing 100% that I will keep my first plane forever, I don’t see my mission (or financial situation) changing drastically enough to warrant any change in the next 10-15 years.

[jetdriven]

Spend real money on a detailed prebuy inspection by someone who knows these aircraft.   It’s like spending money on a lawyer, you need a good one.  If you find one one the east coast, call me.  

[BobCW]

@jetdriven I'm hoping too. Unfortunately I believe that I will be somewhat limited by the aircraft's location. Planning to utilize the closest Authorized MSC. 

[tmo]

27 minutes ago, BobCW said:

Planning to utilize the closest Authorized MSC.

Add "that hasn't (recently?) worked on the plane" to the list of requirements for the MSC. I wouldn't expect any of the MSCs to do a less than stellar job, but it's always better to be safe than sorry.

[BobCW]

@tmo added to the list (original post edited)! Thanks!

[J0nathan225]

AGL and Cole are the two best shops near you.  I’m down at mother Rucker and still use AGL (KMRN). I’ve had 2 different Es so if you have questions on my annual costs let me know.  Some have said 10% rule, but our pay being fairly linear I like to keep an overhauls worth accessible, regardless of engine time it’s always a possibility. Auto pilot and GPS would be big on my list, an engine moinitor is cheaper to add than either of those two items. 

Edited February 15, 2021 by J0nathan225

[Browncbr1]

Don’t forget budget for dual transition training, as it seems all insurance carriers are requiring that these days.  

Also, take time to consider if you want electric gear or the bulletproof manual gear.  Usually, folks who desire manual gear and more useful load and interior space go for 67F, as I did.   The electric gear has a tiny cold formed spring that can break and inhibit the gear.  It is very expensive to replace this little $1 spring and something that needs to be done every so many hours.   Jbar owners just lubricate at annual.  No worries.  High time airframes would need a look at the downlock block though, but that is cheap and easy.

lastly, in the age of ever increasing insurance rates, consider the affect of high Hull value on your annual insurance premium.   

[toto]

This may be an obvious recommendation, but what I would add to all of the great suggestions above is:

Try to pick a relatively quiet time in your life to do this.  Buying an airplane is an adventure, and whether your bird of choice is factory new or the first model year of a vintage craft, you're going to be thrown a bunch of curveballs.  Stuff isn't going to work right.  You're going to get unexpected phone calls from unexpected people asking for decisions you can't make and cash you'd rather not spend.

I know you said you'll be in the same place for a few years, but you also mentioned a few other "life" stressors... try to pick a period of time where you can absorb a continuous din of aircraft buying crazy without too much harm.  It does get better the second time

[jetdriven]

Also, as Excel spreadsheet doesn’t always take everything into account. What you’re trying to do is minimize risk as a buyer.  Inspect all the steel tubing, inspect all of the spars including the rear spar, in the gear well, and from behind inspection panels. But also some hidden risk that may blow you up for 40 grand that you may not be aware of. A plane with 400 hours on it and eight years since an overhaul for example, infrequently flown. There was a guy on beach talk going to this right now he’s got a 2017 overhaul with 500 hours, and he puts a cylinder on it, but they look inside the engine and the cam is trashed. . pull a cylinder off for the pre-buy, pay the seller good money for his risk as well but really you want to do this.  Frequently, these engines  eat a camshaft and lifters which turns into an overhaul just about as quickly as that. Or like a person I know of, that bought a plane with an engine had been prop struck a couple of times, and had the case reworked. The case had five or 6000 hours on it, and low and behold, right out of prebuy the case is cracked in three places. Now the seller is surprisingly, working with him on this, but that’s a 30-40k deal. You must be very careful when you’re dealing at the lower end of the market, because a $70,000 1967 F model can turn into $120,000 67F model that you’re buried in. I think the later airplanes present a little bit less risk in that regard. You do have to pay more upfront, and if you’re financing it, you’re eating more interest, but right now money is cheap, so it does not cost very much more to buy a whole lot more expensive and better equipped airplane. One of my clients did this, he got out of his $60,000 M20C with no radios, and got into an 87J with a high time engine for like 90 grand. So he gets to enjoy a pretty fresh low time airplane, that has all the modern things like Epoxy coated steel tube fuselage tubing, and when he goes to sell it he’s going to make a good bit of cash from it. 

Edited February 15, 2021 by jetdriven

[irishpilot]

My first Mooney was a '65 E with GNS 530W with coupled autopilot. I flew that thing everywhere, including ATL down to mins with the big boys. It was great for my 2 and 4 year olds at the time, but very tight for family trips with the fam. If you only plan to keep this plane a few years, then any model on your list will do. If you plan to keep it a long time and upgrade, then I'd go with an F or stretch your budget to a J. Also, be prepared to spend real $$ on mx, especially if you get a bird that has deferred mx. I distinctly remember the time I told my wife that I had to spend $9k on a top-end overhaul. 

If you are financing, I'd ask whoever you finance through what the numbers would be if you buy at $50k, $90k, $150k, etc. Also think about partners. When I stepped up to a Bravo I went in on a partner and its been great. Stick with your budget and plan to spend $$ to fly and keep the plane in top shape. 

Best of luck in your search and you've tapped into a ton of knowledge through MS. There are folk on this page who have forgotten more Mooney knowledge than I have. 

[BobCW]

@J0nathan225 great information! I am going to send you a direct message. Did you have a hangar across from Mike Lopez? I did my PPL training with him and took out the Warrior with Pete Schultz a few times after I finished.

 

@Browncbr1 thanks for the reminder on dual training. I honestly like the manual gear more, but not enough to turn down a viable electric gear aircraft.

 

@toto fortunately I will be in a hold status for a few months waiting to start the Chinook transition course!

[J0nathan225]

1 minute ago, BobCW said:

@J0nathan225 great information! I am going to send you a direct message. Did you have a hangar across from Mike Lopez? I did my PPL training with him and took out the Warrior with Pete Schultz a few times after I finished.

 

@Browncbr1 thanks for the reminder on dual training. I honestly like the manual gear more, but not enough to turn down a viable electric gear aircraft.

 

@toto fortunately I will be in a hold status for a few months waiting to start the Chinook transition course!

Yup! You probably saw my old M20E or the shiny “newer” one, blue and white. 

[BobCW]

54 minutes ago, irishpilot said:

If you plan to keep it a long time and upgrade, then I'd go with an F or stretch your budget to a J.

Thanks! I am definitely planning to keep this plane for at least 10 years. I am really going to look hard into the MX side of the aircraft I buy and am hoping to find a partner to bring in later!

[BobCW]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

You must be very careful when you’re dealing at the lower end of the market, because a $70,000 1967 F model can turn into $120,000 67F model

@jetdriven like you and @irishpilot point out, I do need to be very careful with this purchase. It would be terrible to end up with a lot of squawks in the first year or two. Sometimes you just can't prevent bad luck, but if you buy an airplane that with only a couple hundred hours over the last decade, don't be surprised. I think based off what I'm hearing here, a newer (70's) long-body F may be ideal. I just don't see myself stretching my budget much further.

14 minutes ago, J0nathan225 said:

Yup! You probably saw my old M20E or the shiny “newer” one, blue and white. 

I believe I saw the older M20E...was it Red/White? 

[KLRDMD]

13 minutes ago, BobCW said:

I think based off what I'm hearing here, a newer (70's) long-body F may be ideal.

If you're looking for an "F", which I believe is appropriate, personally I would recommend a '67 or '68 with manual gear.

[toto]

Not sure if it's been mentioned here, but I'd recommend going beyond Controller and TaP for your search. It's a seller's market, and those apps are pretty popular - chances are good that the seller will have been contacted by other buyers before you're even aware of the listing. 

Barnstormers is a mess of a website, but I'd start there. You can set up automated alerts for listings that match your search terms. 

I'd also keep an eye on the bulletin boards and local FBOs (I mean the actual physical bulletin boards with actual thumbtacks). You might even put up a "wanted" sign at airports you frequent. 

There's no doubt that you can find good planes on Controller and TaP, but you're also likely to pay top dollar given the eyeballs and competition.

[BobCW]

44 minutes ago, toto said:

Barnstormers is a mess of a website, but I'd start there.

I'm all about expanding the search. Just subscribed to an automated Barnstormers alert (thanks for the tip), I am monitoring the listing board here on MS, and I joined a few Facebook groups.

[Parker_Woodruff]

I've owned 2 Mooneys and presently insure about 160 of them.

I've always been inclined to the cleanest, newest airframe possible and willing to upgrade the other stuff later on.  For me, that's been a 1990 M20J-AT with 6900 hours and a 1987 M20K with about 1400 hours.

If you see yourself wanting to put $20,000 in the plane, I'd **personally** rather do that with an airplane built in the '70s over one in the '60s.

That said, I lean towards the 1976 M20F...but...what year was that engine overhauled? 10 years ago?  Ok.  25 years ago?  I'd likely pass...

It's been for sale awhile...maybe they'll work on the price...