Champion Iridium Fine Wire Plugs

[Mooney217RN]

Not a new topic, but I would like to hear some input from fellow Mooney Spacers on the benefits or not of using fine wire plugs on my Ovation.

[carusoam]

As far as I know...

Fine wires are in...

Heavy electrodes are out...

Fine wires are not perfect as some have lost their center electrodes... (no known damaged caused by the lost bit...)

Heavy electrodes interfere with the fuel mixture flow around the plug tip more than the open fine wire...

For a more educated opinion on IO550 ops, I always invite @StevenL757...

Best regards,

-a-

[toto]

The Champions are the plugs that had some problems losing electrodes. Tempest plugs have not, as far as I know. 

I'm very happy to have spent the money on Tempest fine wires. I used to have frequent fouling problems with massives, but the Tempest fine wires have been absolutely flawless. 

[carusoam]

Champions are known for resistance increase... and the top connector that would unscrew...

Tempest lost a few center electrodes... about four around here... (not a lot)

And my Bendix plug tossed a center electrode ceramic cover in my truck... (I posted the pic....)

The shape of the outer electrode captured the moving ceramic part...

Plugs live in a tough environment...

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

Champion changed its resistor design years ago and current plugs should be as good as Tempest. I've got 250 hours on the ones that came with my rebuilt engine and the resistance hasn't changed since new. I'd buy whatever is cheaper.

BY plugs should have the same benefits regarding fouling and LOP operation as fine wires and are cheaper, but will wear out faster.

Skip

[Dustin Kurath]

In my experience the tempest fine wires are not been good. My ovation ultra came with them new, and I started having problems at about 500 Hrs tach time. I had a string of 4 in flight magneto failures within 75 tach hours over about 6 weeks, including one over the continental divide with mountain obfuscation. I finally pulled the plugs and found one with a missing center electrode and a few with high resistance. Pulled all 12 and replaced them with tempest massives and 2 freshly overhauled mags. No more problems now. Some people like fine wires and have good luck with them, but I can think of much cheaper things to use as fishing weights.

[Marauder]

The Champions are the plugs that had some problems losing electrodes. Tempest plugs have not, as far as I know. 
I'm very happy to have spent the money on Tempest fine wires. I used to have frequent fouling problems with massives, but the Tempest fine wires have been absolutely flawless. 

Just the opposite. The Tempest fine wires have been losing center electrodes (I have experienced one failure already with less than 300 hours on them). The massive Champions had an issue with high resistance of the electrode (I also had this issue with 6 of 8 being too high, leading to installing the Tempest).

With the redesign of the Champion massive mentioned above, I have a complete set of new plugs waiting for the next Tempest fishing weight to be produced.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Tim Jodice]

I had Tempest fine wire plugs and one lost a center electrode. The local service center didn't have fine wire in stocks so i bought tempest massive plugs.

I noticed a difference in how it started and a difference in mag drop and it doesn't run LOP as well. Minor differences. 

Tempest was very responsive and asked me to send all of them in for evaluation and sent me a new set of fine wire plugs. 

I like the finewires because of how the engine runs. That said if the Tempest break again I will try Champion. My A&P said champion made in the past few years don't have the high resistance issues. 

 

 

[carusoam]

Question for Dustin...

When you had the plug failures...

Were you able to use your engine monitor in flight, to identify it was the particular plug?

Some people that have lost the center electrode didn’t even notice it missing until it got pulled later for annual maintenance...

They must have had really strong spark... 

Speaking of strong spark....

Are you going with an electronic mag?

Best regards,

-a-

[Tim Jodice]

4 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Some people that have lost the center electrode didn’t even notice it missing until it got pulled later for annual maintenance...

This was me.

[StevenL757]

On 12/20/2020 at 9:33 PM, Mooney217RN said:

Not a new topic, but I would like to hear some input from fellow Mooney Spacers on the benefits or not of using fine wire plugs on my Ovation.

 

4 hours ago, Dustin Kurath said:

In my experience the tempest fine wires are not been good. My ovation ultra came with them new, and I started having problems at about 500 Hrs tach time. I had a string of 4 in flight magneto failures within 75 tach hours over about 6 weeks, including one over the continental divide with mountain obfuscation. I finally pulled the plugs and found one with a missing center electrode and a few with high resistance. Pulled all 12 and replaced them with tempest massives and 2 freshly overhauled mags. No more problems now. Some people like fine wires and have good luck with them, but I can think of much cheaper things to use as fishing weights.

While I can certainly empathize with those who have had issues with Tempest finewires, on the IO550 platform specifically (this is courtesy of Mr. Bob Minnis co-designer of the IO550, patent holder, and former senior leader at then-TCM - also designer and original STC creator of the 310HP Ovation and Eagle upgrade), finewires are one of the three key components to your ignition system that allow the smoothest LOP operations possible.  I'm sure someone may come along in due course and demonstrate how much smoother an IO550 variant will operate with a Surefly or other equivalent magneto, but until then, I'll continue to support Bob's position.  Again, there are many related postings here if you search.

@Dustin Kurath, I'd like to think you (and anyone else who has experienced a failure) are some of the very few exceptions to the rule.  Without knowing how you're managing your engine or airplane, it would be good to understand some more context regarding your operating experience and habits...strictly from an educational standpoint...despite the fact you've likely "moved on" and found a solution that works for you.

I also know from personal experience that Tempest stands solidly by their product, has impeccable customer service, and has bent over backwards to help out our members on several occasions.  Are their plugs perfect?  No, and I'd never expect perfection of anything we put in our airplanes.  I'm only endorsing based on my own positive experiences and those relayed by others; as well as the plugs' track record that points more toward success vs. failure versus their massive cousins.  Again, not a dogfight...just observations based on several engines in several airplanes over a short 12-13 years of ownership.

Steve

[carusoam]

Let’s see if the @TempestJohn Herman was the contact...

https://mooneyspace.com/search/?q=Tempest guy&updated_after=any&sortby=relevancy&search_and_or=and

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

I’ve run the Tempest FWs for a long time in my F and they’ve been great.  Supposedly they did have some manufacturing issues that had been outsourced (the electrode failures), but they stood by the product and now do all the manufacturing in house.  At least that’s what I learned on MS.  I’d put them in my airplane again for sure.

[Dustin Kurath]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Question for Dustin...

When you had the plug failures...

Were you able to use your engine monitor in flight, to identify it was the particular plug?

Some people that have lost the center electrode didn’t even notice it missing until it got pulled later for annual maintenance...

They must have had really strong spark... 

Speaking of strong spark....

Are you going with an electronic mag?

Best regards,

-a-

There was no abnormal behavior on the engine monitor, other than a dramatic rise in EGT's when the mag finally failed. The first clue that something was wrong was an occasional bump from the engine, that became more frequent over time until it stopped when the mag finally quit. Upon inspection of the failed mag, it was discovered that the points were burned out and failed in the open position. I initially thought it was a magneto problem, but after two more identical failures including both left and right magnetos, one of which was a new mag and the other two which had been overhauled by two different shops, it meant to me that the string of in flight mag failures was a symptom rather than the root cause. I discovered the plug with the missing electrode when I decided to take a day off work and spend the day with my local A&P diagnosing and testing everything on my ignition system and replacing a 4th magneto that was beginning to show the same signs of failure at about 50 hours TTIS. The problem only manifested itself at high power settings or at high altitudes >10k ft. High outside air temps also seemed to make it worse. I firmly believe that the plug that lost an electrode was the canary in the coal mine and there were quality problems with the other plugs such as high resistance possibly due to incipient failure of the laser weld on the center electrode that show up when the plugs are very hot. From a physics standpoint this makes sense since hot metal has less electrical conductivity. Also, I have unpressurized mags and the resistance of the air inside the mags drops with increasing altitude per paschen's law, and likewise the resistance in the air in the spark plug gap increases with manifold pressure as a function of cylinder pressure. My advice to anyone who encounters this type of problem would be to turn off the mag that is failing, pull the power back a bit, and give up some altitude before the mag completely burns out. If descent is not possible because of terrain, wx, etc... and the mag completely fails, best to look for a good airport to land at because the other mag probably isn't too far behind the first one. In my case, if I had flown the last 2 hours to Seattle after my first mag failed, I'd probably have been faced with an off airport landing and in that kind of terrain with cloud obfuscation good places to deadstick into are pretty scarce and would have been tough to find.

[carusoam]

Dustin,

Thank you for the super-detailed response!

What is your take on electronic mags for your engine?

There are a few people around here that are early adopters... I’m not one of them... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Dustin Kurath]

1 hour ago, StevenL757 said:

 

While I can certainly empathize with those who have had issues with Tempest finewires, on the IO550 platform specifically (this is courtesy of Mr. Bob Minnis co-designer of the IO550, patent holder, and former senior leader at then-TCM - also designer and original STC creator of the 310HP Ovation and Eagle upgrade), finewires are one of the three key components to your ignition system that allow the smoothest LOP operations possible.  I'm sure someone may come along in due course and demonstrate how much smoother an IO550 variant will operate with a Surefly or other equivalent magneto, but until then, I'll continue to support Bob's position.  Again, there are many related postings here if you search.

@Dustin Kurath, I'd like to think you (and anyone else who has experienced a failure) are some of the very few exceptions to the rule.  Without knowing how you're managing your engine or airplane, it would be good to understand some more context regarding your operating experience and habits...strictly from an educational standpoint...despite the fact you've likely "moved on" and found a solution that works for you.

I also know from personal experience that Tempest stands solidly by their product, has impeccable customer service, and has bent over backwards to help out our members on several occasions.  Are their plugs perfect?  No, and I'd never expect perfection of anything we put in our airplanes.  I'm only endorsing based on my own positive experiences and those relayed by others; as well as the plugs' track record that points more toward success vs. failure versus their massive cousins.  Again, not a dogfight...just observations based on several engines in several airplanes over a short 12-13 years of ownership.

Steve

Good questions, and I'm happy to share. I am commercial and instrument rated and have about 1300 hrs TFT. I fly an average of 300-400 hours per year. Most of my flying is within about 500 miles of my home base in Michigan, but I have flown to the northeast and pacific northwest many times as well as a few trips to Florida. I have about 450 hours in my Ovation, before which I owned a 182T for a while that I logged about 700 hours in. The rest of my experience is composed of various other Cessnas, Cirruses (maybe the correct plural term is Cirri) as well as few twins including a 55 Baron, Aztec, Seminole, and Seneca V. I mostly run rich of peak at 65-70% power in cruise unless I'm fighting strong headwinds to get somewhere, or occasionally lean of peak if I'm heavy with PAX/cargo to minimize required fuel on a long trip. On my Mooney, I like to keep CHT's 300 to 350 and peak EGT's between 1400 and 1425. I like to use 2500-2600 RPM for cruise at low altitudes, and 2400 RPM above 12K ft. When I do go LOP, I always use 20 inches of manifold pressure or less and never LOP above 12K. My 182 ran a little hotter with typical CHT's around 370 and always 50 ROP regardless of power setting. For what it's worth, I did run fine wires in my Cessna for about 300 hours with no issues before selling it, and Tempest did give me a credit through aircraft spruce for the massives that I bought to replace my fine wires and their customer service was very responsive and helpful.

[carusoam]

Mooney has been updating their website....  https://www.mooney.com/air-traffic/

The CEO of Mooney (Jonny) has invited everyone to visit... join... partake...

They have a ‘forum’ section that is designed to be a communication device between the community of Mooney users... and the factory...

This spark plug / mag battle would be an excellent first post on the M20U section of that particular forum...

 

If OK with you all... I can cut and paste...

Or if Dustin would like... he is always welcome to do the cutting and pasting...

Signing up on the website may take part of a day to get a response....

Sections of the website has been active for about a week now... still very new...

Premature mag failures are worth posting about from every mountain top... especially, if two can occur in one flight...

Best regards,

-a-

[Dustin Kurath]

16 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Dustin,

Thank you for the super-detailed response!

What is your take on electronic mags for your engine?

There are a few people around here that are early adopters... I’m not one of them... 

Best regards,

-a-

I know a few people that have an electronic mag, but not on a Mooney. The e-magger I know the best has the electroair STC on his Bonanza and has nothing but great things to say as far as fuel burn, reliability, and LOP smoothness. The reason I am holding off is because traditional magnetos overall have a great track record of reliability and safety and it's easy to find a local A&P that can diagnose or replace one if it fails. Field service I suspect would be tougher to find in the event of a problem with emags. Also, I know of no self powered electronic magnetos are yet available for certified aircraft, so if ship power fails I would automatically be down to one mag creating a secondary emergency. There are some self powered mags on the market, but they are only for experimentals. I admit that with 2 alternators and 2 batteries in my Ovation that total electrical power loss is extraordinarily unlikely, but still possible. The economics considering the fuel savings make complete sense and the 5k it costs will pay for itself twice over 2k hours even if all it saves if 1GPH, but personally I'm waiting for a complete certified dual mag, self powered replacement STC that has some history on it before switching. Call me conservative, but I'd rather be an elephant than a guinea pig.

[Dustin Kurath]

14 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Mooney has been updating their website....  https://www.mooney.com/air-traffic/

The CEO of Mooney (Jonny) has invited everyone to visit... join... partake...

They have a ‘forum’ section that is designed to be a communication device between the community of Mooney users... and the factory...

This spark plug / mag battle would be an excellent first post on the M20U section of that particular forum...

 

If OK with you all... I can cut and paste...

Or if Dustin would like... he is always welcome to do the cutting and pasting...

Signing up on the website may take part of a day to get a response....

Sections of the website has been active for about a week now... still very new...

Premature mag failures are worth posting about from every mountain top... especially, if two can occur in one flight...

Best regards,

-a-

If you want to cut and paste any of my responses here, you're more than welcome to do so. Upon seeing your post, I decided to go to the website and sign up, but am not sure when my application will be approved.

[carusoam]

We can tag team this...

I’ll post the first key points... to hold a space...

Then best figure out how that website can get used.

Best regards,

-a-

[Tim Jodice]

8 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Without knowing how you're managing your engine or airplane, it would be good to understand some more context regarding your operating experience and habits...strictly from an educational standpoint...despite the fact you've likely "moved on" and found a solution that works for you.

I am not a ROP vs LOP operator, I do what I think works best to keep the cylinders below 380 and get the most power out of the engine. 

How I do that is this, if it is a low density altitude I fly about 20-50 LOP at 2500 RPM or higher. In the winter I will run up to 85% power (11.5GPH) if I am hitting a strong headwind.

Summer will usually take what ever I can get unless Boston keeps me real low(2500MSL) which rarely happens or I have a nice tail wind. Around 8-9000 density altitude i will run peak, higher than that 50ROP. The one thing this all revolves around is CHT of 380 or less. If that means 200FPM climb so be it.

Approaching 600 hours it has not caused any problems with the exception of the electrode breaking but based on what I have read here it doesn't matter how you run your engine. I originally bought the fine wire plugs for reduced maintenance the other benefits were a nice bonus. 

Not sure it is related but I when I first got this airplane I did 50 hour oil changes but around 35-40 hours it was using a quart about every 3 hours compared to 6-7 with clean oil so i now do 25 hour oil changes. I use Philips victory oil with no additives.

 

[philiplane]

Fine wires allow smoother LOP operation, and 1-2.2 % more power.  https://www.ramaircraft.com/spark-plugs

There is no reason to use a massive electrode spark plug, you don't even save any money doing so. Fine wires outlast them by at least 3 to 1 margin, and require virtually no maintenance. 

Champion has apparently fixed their resistance problems since the mid-2014 redesign, where they essentially copied Tempest's resistor construction. We don't know if they've solved the more serious center insulator cracking problem. This is where the center electrode ceramic cracks, and separates, allowing the electrode to become a glow plug and then pre-ignite the mixture. With disastrous results. Pre-ignition melts a hole in the piston crown in a matter of minutes.

Tempest has had a very small number of center electrode tips come loose. These appear to be confined to a small batch. If you contact them, they will send replacement plugs ASAP. I also had six plugs that had a resistance problem, these were also a very small problem that Tempest corrected by overnighting me a new set of plugs. 

I service about 1500-2000 spark plugs annually, so I've seen nearly 50,000 spark plugs in 25 years. The overwhelming majority of problems are with Champion plugs, and they are a lousy company to deal with. On the other hand, even with the tiny number of Tempest glitches, they are incredibly responsive and never do less than their absolute best to serve their customers. 

I worked on analyzing the problems we were seeing with Champion plugs starting in 2011. You've probably seen my contributions, appearing in several articles. The plugs in the blue trays in this article are from one of my customer's Cirrus:

https://blog.aopa.org/aopa/2015/03/19/champion-from-denial-to-acceptance/

Edited December 22, 2020 by philiplane

[Mufflerbearing]

My plane came with Champion Massives when I bought it.  On the ground, I would have to excessively lean out so the plugs wouldn't foul before run up.  Operationally, this was a mess.  I took the plugs out and had the resistor checked and all but one failed horribly.  I replaced all plugs with the Tempest fine wire plugs, large in part due to comments on this issue here on MS.  The plane never fouls now.  Running LOP is simple, smooth and at 165 true (my plane has FIKI) I run 11.5 gpm at 10k-12k.  Best upgrade I have made to my plane. 

 

[McMooney]

I know 2 owners that've pulled the fine wires,  no idea why but they are dead set against them.  I figure i'll try 4 eventually but not getting my hopes up.

[Tim Jodice]

15 hours ago, McMooney said:

I know 2 owners that've pulled the fine wires,  no idea why but they are dead set against them.  I figure i'll try 4 eventually but not getting my hopes up.

Why would you do just 4?