231 Down in North Georgia pasture

[Cyril Gibb]

19 hours ago, kortopates said:

Pilots that don't need insurance or want to pay for it for their screw up's self insure or just purchase liability insurance as Eric mentioned. But the US, and maybe Canada*,  is about the the only country you can fly without liability insurance. 

*I didn't have prove I had insurance in Canada, but every other country I've flown in I had too entering.

Liability insurance is required in Canada.  Minimum amount varies according to MGW.

[kortopates]

On 12/26/2020 at 7:13 PM, skydvrboy said:

Yes, I left out of KSLN and picked up flight following with KC center shortly after leaving the class D airspace. My track on this flight and, it seems all others, starts when I first squawk a discrete code for flight following. 

The flight on November 19th shows this perfectly. I left from KSLN and picked up flight following as I went by Wichita. Once past the busy airspace they dropped me from flight following and I went on to KWLD. On the  return, I again picked up flight following as I got close to Wichita and kept it the rest of the way home. During the flight, I flew directly over the ads-b tower at KEWK, yet was not shown on flight aware until I got flight following from Wichita approach. 

You might be describing a different flight than the one recorded in flight aware on 11/19, which shows you departing from the Witchita area and being picked up by Ads/B at BEC at 3000' - but only for the first 2.5 minutes heading southerly. Then a full 30 minutes go by (you could have landed for a fuel stop!) and then next Kansas Center has you now heading back to SLN at 6600K.  It kinda suggestive of the aircraft getting out of range of ADS/B after you went by BEC, and then you are back on with the flight following (I assume). 

I have a client that relayed to me that he had a similar problem with his Uavonix tail beacon and that they instructed him how to increase the transmit power and ever since all his flights are fully captured by Ads/B positional data. If I were you, I'd ask a few of your local pilots to find out if all there flights are being captured by Ads/B positional data - or look up some known local N numbers.

[DMM]

On 12/24/2020 at 9:25 PM, aviatoreb said:

This brings up a point I’ve wondered about - how low becomes an unporting problem - in any phase of flight?  12 gal?  12 gal even at the end of the flight arriving at the pattern?

I've also pondered this point.  My E lists a very low unusable number so I looked at CAR-3 3.437 certification standards for Determination of Unusable Fuel and fuel system operation on low fuel. Certification required Slips, skids, transition from glide to Vy climb etc...   The only way an E could pass this test with 3.4 lbs unusable is if the duration of the slips/skids were  short enough that the engine was feed from the fuel remaining in the hose. I land with 10 gal min in the tank thats feeding engine.

Also this has some good info on usable fuel testing for part 23 aircraft.  Requires 30 second one ball width skids.  https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_23-16A.pdf

Edited December 28, 2020 by DMM
additional Part 23 info

[aviatoreb]

4 hours ago, DMM said:

I've also pondered this point.  My E lists a very low unusable number so I looked at CAR-3 3.437 certification standards for Determination of Unusable Fuel and fuel system operation on low fuel. Certification required Slips, skids, transition from glide to Vy climb etc...   The only way an E could pass this test with 3.4 lbs unusable is if the duration of the slips/skids were  short enough that the engine was feed from the fuel remaining in the hose. I land with 10 gal min in the tank thats feeding engine.

Also this has some good info on usable fuel testing for part 23 aircraft.  Requires 30 second one ball width skids.  https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_23-16A.pdf

That is very interesting.   But I see it is dated 2004.  Perhaps the standard was different many years earlier during periods when our various old airplanes were built?

E

[DMM]

1 minute ago, aviatoreb said:

That is very interesting.   But I see it is dated 2004.  Perhaps the standard was different many years earlier during periods when our various old airplanes were built?

E

 

2 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

That is very interesting.   But I see it is dated 2004.  Perhaps the standard was different many years earlier during periods when our various old airplanes were built?

Yes the AC references Part 23 the update to CAR-3.  The CAR-3 version I have is dated Nov 1949 and does not specify the duration of the slips. I may try more google-fu and see if I can find the 1950s/60 version of Car-3 that has the original requirements.  

[skydvrboy]

On 12/28/2020 at 12:29 PM, kortopates said:

You might be describing a different flight than the one recorded in flight aware on 11/19

I'm pretty sure I know where I flew that day ;-) and FlightAware is consistent in tracking my flights.  I departed Salina (KSLN) without flight following, thus no tracking.  I then picked up flight following as I passed the busier airports near Wichita, thus tracking.  Flight following was cancelled and I continued on to my destination, Strother Field (KWLD), thus no tracking.  I then picked up flight following again near Wichita on the way back to Salina, thus tracked again.  Looking at the small segment on my outbound route, I was on flight following a bit longer than what was tracked, but I don't think I was on more than about 10-15 minutes on the way down to Strother Field.

I did find this on FlightAware's FAQ's:

Can FlightAware track VFR flights? What about a VFR flight with a flight plan? SHARE | BACK TO TOP

VFR flight tracking is not officially supported although some aircraft flying VFR with flight following or aircraft that are ADS-B equipped, tracking is available by turning on position-only flights on your account. Origin, destination, departure, arrival, and flight plan data may not be available. In Australia, VFR flights are fully supported by FlightAware as long as they have been assigned a transponder code.

Bold added by me... I wasn't able to find out why some are tracked and others are not, so the debate remains, is it aircraft equipment based (1090 ES vs 978 UAT), private ADS-B receiver dependent, or ADS-B tower dependent.  I think I can rule out ADS-B tower dependent as I have flown directly over the towers and not shown up on FlightAware.  I don't know why I really want to know so badly, but I sent an email to FlightAware asking for a definitive answer and will post their reply.

[kortopates]

6 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

I'm pretty sure I know where I flew that day ;-) and FlightAware is consistent in tracking my flights.  I departed Salina (KSLN) without flight following, thus no tracking.  I then picked up flight following as I passed the busier airports near Wichita, thus tracking.  Flight following was cancelled and I continued on to my destination, Strother Field (KWLD), thus no tracking.  I then picked up flight following again near Wichita on the way back to Salina, thus tracked again.  Looking at the small segment on my outbound route, I was on flight following a bit longer than what was tracked, but I don't think I was on more than about 10-15 minutes on the way down to Strother Field.

I did find this on FlightAware's FAQ's:

Can FlightAware track VFR flights? What about a VFR flight with a flight plan? SHARE | BACK TO TOP

VFR flight tracking is not officially supported although some aircraft flying VFR with flight following or aircraft that are ADS-B equipped, tracking is available by turning on position-only flights on your account. Origin, destination, departure, arrival, and flight plan data may not be available. In Australia, VFR flights are fully supported by FlightAware as long as they have been assigned a transponder code.

Bold added by me... I wasn't able to find out why some are tracked and others are not, so the debate remains, is it aircraft equipment based (1090 ES vs 978 UAT), private ADS-B receiver dependent, or ADS-B tower dependent.  I think I can rule out ADS-B tower dependent as I have flown directly over the towers and not shown up on FlightAware.  I don't know why I really want to know so badly, but I sent an email to FlightAware asking for a definitive answer and will post their reply.

The FAQ you quoted from Flightaware is dated, here are 2 new ones that make my point:

I've noticed more flights than usual, has something changed? SHARE | BACK TO TOP

Yes, previously there was an option to "Show position-only flights" to display flights that did not have a filed flight plan. We have now turned this on for all users.

 

I'm noticing more alerts for aircraft I track, what has changed? SHARE | BACK TO TOP

We now display position-only flights for all users, therefore if an aircraft you track doesn't file a flight plan, you'll receive un-filed (or "ad-hoc") flight alerts.

 

Thus the ""Show position-only flights" is no longer used and they "now display position-only flights for all users" -- but not entirely true for you. It is not an issue of using a UAT, at least not from what others have reported.

 

If I may, 2 questions for you:

1) what is your ads-b out device?

2) have you asked other local pilots if all their flights in your area are being tracked - for comparison?

 

Thanks and I hope Flightaware helps lead you to a resolution. Obviously I am very curious to learn too!

[skydvrboy]

Sure, I have a skybeacon 978 UAT and I performed the service bulletin that increases output power.   The other pilot I talked to said their flights also only show up when on flight following with the exception of their latest flight. Perhaps mine will now start showing up too. Earlier this year I flew from Salina all the way to Colorado Springs without flight following and FlightAware didn't pick me up until I contacted Springs approach and got a squawk code. 

As for the more recent FAQ's, those only apply to FlightAware's decision to make "position only" flights their default setting. I've always had "position only" flights turned on, so that shouldn't have  affected my tracking in any way. 

I've also checked FlightAware's coverage maps and they have a few local private ads-b data feeds around here as well as a couple at local airports. My last untracked flight went directly over one of those airports, KMPR.

 

[kortopates]

Thanks, i aapreciate your time in expanding on the details. Because of the pretty prolific ADS/B coverage in your area, I couldn't help but wonder if it might have been an issue like the transmit power. But you've already gone through that. The most compelling point that it's not your equipment though is hearing other pilots are seeing the same thing.
A big mystery though since we both have good similar coverage. In my area you can't escape being tracked, and in your area it's very different. I am sure there is a good explanation.
Although it's not something we need to really worry about, this technology can be very helpful in locating a downed aircraft much faster when we are being tracked and the data is available to the SAR folks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mooneymite]

I send an inquiry to Flightaware support on another subject.  The reply contained this information:

The uAvionix Skybeacon is a 978/UAT ADS-B device. We have very low coverage of the 978/UAT units because they are only legal in the US, below 18,000MSL.

I hope that provides some insight to why the tracking may not be very good.
 

[kortopates]

I send an inquiry to Flightaware support on another subject.  The reply contained this information:

The uAvionix Skybeacon is a 978/UAT ADS-B device. We have very low coverage of the 978/UAT units because they are only legal in the US, below 18,000MSL.

I hope that provides some insight to why the tracking may not be very good.
 

Thanks, that was my best guess originally, but then talked to a few local Uavionix equipped pilots and all said there flights were being tracked as well - but it must be differences in coverage for the UAT as Flihhtaware says.

 

Today in my hangar, doing only a database update with avionics turned on, I still managed to get tracked as a positional flight! Hangar doors where mostly closed and there is no tower on my field that I am aware of.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[skydvrboy]

@kortopates Here is the response I got from FlightAware:

Hello Mark,

Thank you for contacting FlightAware.

We are enthralled to hear about the spirited debate ongoing amongst an online pilot forum.

There could be several reasons that some aircraft equipped with ADSB out are not tracked on our website while others are. You have already mentioned one possible reason being 1090 ES vs 978 UAT. Most of our terrestrial ADS-B sources are tuned to 1090, however a handful of users do request to be equipped to receive 978 signals. That being said, 978 coverage is more intermittent in coverage compared to 1090.
Additional factors include whether there is ample ADS-B coverage in the areas where pilots are operating. If they are operating in areas of low coverage, there may not be enough data collected to show tracking on our website.
Subsequently, certain private aircraft are blocked from public tracking on our website, which is another reason why they may not appear on the live tracking maps.

Hopefully this helps to clarify your inquiry.

Let us know if you have any additional questions.

Regards,

Rebecca LaPorta

[kortopates]

Thanks for sharing Mark, didn't realize 978 coverage isn't that good everywhere.
As mentioned I got "tracked" today while in my hangar just turning on my Avionics to load databases! While doing so I got the Flightaware notification I had departed, then after turning it off I got one that I had landed! You can't escape it here, at least not with 1090 ES.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[skydvrboy]

I guess what still confuses me a bit is why my track logs show I’m getting picked up by 978 UAT sometimes, but all my tracking consistently will start and end when I pick up and cancel flight following. I have to make another trip to Colorado in the next week, so I may do it without flight following and see if I ever get tracked.

[kortopates]

I guess what still confuses me a bit is why my track logs show I’m getting picked up by 978 UAT sometimes, but all my tracking consistently will start and end when I pick up and cancel flight following. I have to make another trip to Colorado in the next week, so I may do it without flight following and see if I ever get tracked.

I believe once your on flight following you are no longer dependent on Ads/b. Flightsware is then getting your data through center since your N number has been tagged to your data by Center. When you look at the track log data it shows the source of every position report - as I am sure you are aware.
Good follow-up question to verify with Flightaware.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[201Steve]

I watched a Comanche land inadvertent gear up from my porch at the airport. It was a nice short field landing. Did not slide long at all. Very comfortable looking (from a physical sense anyway). I think about that a lot when pre-picking my points for landing along my route of flight. 

I think,  depending on altitude, speed, and desired point, it may be beneficial to both deploy the gear and then pull it back up prior to ground effect, maybe even in ground effect. 

[steingar]

Flightaware doesn't track any of my flights because I told it not to.  I don't need strangers peeping in on my business.