prebuy or annual?

[Jerry Pressley]

What is the difference in a pre-buy and an annual inspection with discrepancy list?  going prices for each?

[RobertGary1]

3 hours ago, Jerry Pressley said:

What is the difference in a pre-buy and an annual inspection with discrepancy list?  going prices for each?

No standard for prebuy. Could just be a 5 min walk around. 
 

-Robert 

[KLRDMD]

With a pre-buy, you get exactly what you want as you specify it. With an annual you get exactly what the FAA wants whether it is applicable to your needs or not.

With a pre-buy you can specify a pilot of your choosing test fly the airplane for you if you are unavailable or inexperienced. You can direct said pilot to verify that all of the avionics work (with current databases, as indicated) and that it makes book numbers, flies hands-off, etc. You can have someone inspect the condition of the interior and paint "in the flesh".  You can ask the A&P/IA what typical wear items or other "disposable" items that are not airworthiness issues today you can expect to need attention in the next year, five years, etc. NONE of that is part of an annual but all of which are an important part of a pre-buy inspection. The people saying don't get a pre-buy, get an annual are short changing you. Get the information you need to make an informed decision whether or not to buy this particular airplane. That is a pre-buy; that is NOT an annual.

But what do I know about buying airplanes???

[gsxrpilot]

To follow on from Dr Reed @KLRDMD...

After the pre-buy is done, assuming the decision is to buy, the money is paid and ownership is transferred... but BEFORE closing up the airplane... it might be appropriate to ask the shop to pick up where the pre-buy left off and complete an annual inspection on this "new to you" airplane.

But don't ask for an annual to be done on a plane you do not own, nor would I allow an annual to be done on my plane at the request of someone else...

[Guest]

A thorough PPI should cover everything needed to complete an Annual Inspection, less the servicing items like fuel screens, batteries, servicing hydraulic reservoirs, oxygen, recertifying the ELT, AD compliance etc.  All of which can be completed after the sale is completed.
 

Clarence

[carusoam]

1) Simply a PPI is for your wallet’s protection...  It’s not your plane yet...

2) The annual is protection of your plane’s right to fly...  it has become your plane, and it needs its paperwork complete...

You can dive into a PPI, and stop anytime things look like they may be too expensive to fix...

You can turn the PPI into an annual... if the plane has been proven worthy of a few more steps...
 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or much of a plane buyer...

Best regards,

-a-

[Jerry Pressley]

so from this i assume an annual inspection with a discrepancy list is much more thorough than a prebuy and prices are similar.  Do most IA's walk slow when asked for discrepancy only?

[RobertGary1]

41 minutes ago, Jerry Pressley said:

so from this i assume an annual inspection with a discrepancy list is much more thorough than a prebuy and prices are similar.  Do most IA's walk slow when asked for discrepancy only?

There is no standard for prebuy. You have to ask the shop what they do. Again some may just do a walk around and maybe run the engine. Don’t assume what any particular shop is dojng for a prebuy. 
 

-Robert 

[KLRDMD]

21 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

There is no standard for prebuy. You have to ask the shop what they do.

No, you have to tell the shop what you want done.

[adverseyaw]

On 10/18/2020 at 11:14 AM, RobertGary1 said:

There is no standard for prebuy.

Nor is there for an annual. An IA must only use "a checklist" to complete an annual***. A good annual is based on manufacturer's checklist, and if you're planning for good annuals in the future, you should include a lot of that in your pre-buy.

A pre-buy is to inform you about the value of the airplane by inspecting its condition. The pre-buy should take into account anything expensive (which includes anything on your next annual), and shouldn't waste time on cheap things like brake pads or rigging. The manufacturer's annual checklist is the natural starting point for both: for an annual, it should be expanded to include known squaws. For a pre-buy, it should be reduced to skip anything cheap to fix, and expanded to include concern areas you have about this plane.

Most thorough Mooney pre-buys can be done in 4-8 hours*. A pre-buy should never include repairs.

Most Mooney annuals can be done in 5-20 hours (or more)**, because it will include inspection of cheap, time-consuming items, and it will almost always include some repairs. (To emphasize gsxrpilot's earlier point: simply starting an annual takes the plane out of service and requires a signature to return it, plus rectification of any airworthiness items found in the annual. Don't do it.)

* LASAR says 19 hours: 6 inspecting, 6 opening and closing the plane, and 7 on flight test and logbook review. None of my mechanics have ever wanted to fly, so you could imagine between 12 and 18 hours.
** Looks like I was optimistic on hours spent on my J annuals. Last two years have been 35+ hours each. Simpler Mooneys may not get down too far below that after all.
*** 43.15 says "you can use your own" but must at least include everything in 43 Appendix D

Edited October 19, 2020 by adverseyaw
Corrections on the hours based on what I've learned on this thread :-)

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, adverseyaw said:

Nor is there for an annual. An IA must only use "a checklist" to complete an annual. A good annual is based on manufacturer's checklist, and if you're planning for good annuals in the future, you should include a lot of that in your pre-buy.

A pre-buy is to inform you about the value of the airplane by inspecting its condition. The pre-buy should take into account anything expensive (which includes anything on your next annual), and shouldn't waste time on cheap things like brake pads or rigging. The manufacturer's annual checklist is the natural starting point for both: for an annual, it should be expanded to include known squaws. For a pre-buy, it should be reduced to skip anything cheap to fix, and expanded to include concern areas you have about this plane.

Most thorough Mooney pre-buys can be done in 4-8 hours. A pre-buy should never include repairs.

Most Mooney annuals can be done in 5-20 hours (or more), because it will include inspection of cheap, time-consuming items, and it will almost always include some repairs. (To emphasize gsxrpilot's earlier point: simply starting an annual takes the plane out of service and requires a signature to return it, plus rectification of any airworthiness items found in the annual. Don't do it.)

5-20 hour Annuals are why pre-purchase inspections require 25-30 hours.

Clarence

[adverseyaw]

1 minute ago, M20Doc said:

5-20 hour Annuals are why pre-purchase inspections require 25-30 hours.

I'm being inclusive :-) Maybe some early C's can be done in 5-10 hours? I keep dumping new parts into my plane so 20+ is the norm for me.

I'm curious to hear what would take 25-30 hours on a pre-buy. The only time-consuming thing I can think of is the 208B inspection on older roll cages, as I think that requires pulling a lot of the interior apart.

[Guest]

I’m not alone in my thinking, during an Annual inspection not every inspection panel would be opened, during a PPI everything should be opened for inspection.  We’re talking about 40-60 year old airframes with known problems which can be financially ruinous to one’s finances.  We’re talking about spending a few percent of its value to know if it’s in good condition.

Clarence

This is from Lasar’s website:

[gsxrpilot]

Both of my pre-buys took more than a week to complete. I'm sure it wasn't 40 man hours, but it's not something to be rushed.

[1001001]

Don't short change yourself on a pre-purchase inspection.  Make it as thorough as it can be.  If it makes sense, and the current owner agrees, once the PPI is complete, it can be converted/extended to an Annual Inspection. 

When I purchased my 201 last year, there were some very significant discrepancies that were caught in the PPI that might not have been discovered in an annual, but the shop I used has a reputation for thoroughness.

Basically, as part of the sale agreement, I offered to pay for a pre-purchase inspection that took about 25 hours (based on LASAR's list) and the owner had the option to convert it to an annual (with any additional expense taken on by him) if the deal did not go through.  At the end, I purchased the airplane and converted the PPI to an annual, and paid the additional cost to do so myself.  Part of the reason for this was the airplane was just barely out of annual and the owner had to get a ferry permit to deliver it to my preferred shop.

I'd definitely recommend using an established checklist like the one LASAR publishes, and using a thorough shop.  You'll hate yourself if you miss something in a PPI and end up having to pay a bunch of money during the first annual.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, 1001001 said:

Don't short change yourself on a pre-purchase inspection.  Make it as thorough as it can be.  If it makes sense, and the current owner agrees, once the PPI is complete, it can be converted/extended to an Annual Inspection. 

When I purchased my 201 last year, there were some very significant discrepancies that were caught in the PPI that might not have been discovered in an annual, but the shop I used has a reputation for thoroughness.

Basically, as part of the sale agreement, I offered to pay for a pre-purchase inspection that took about 25 hours (based on LASAR's list) and the owner had the option to convert it to an annual (with any additional expense taken on by him) if the deal did not go through.  At the end, I purchased the airplane and converted the PPI to an annual, and paid the additional cost to do so myself.  Part of the reason for this was the airplane was just barely out of annual and the owner had to get a ferry permit to deliver it to my preferred shop.

I'd definitely recommend using an established checklist like the one LASAR publishes, and using a thorough shop.  You'll hate yourself if you miss something in a PPI and end up having to pay a bunch of money during the first annual.

This site has several stories of budget PPI’s that led to disaster at the first Annual.

Clarence

[KLRDMD]

26 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Both of my pre-buys took more than a week to complete. I'm sure it wasn't 40 man hours, but it's not something to be rushed.

I haven't done a pre-buy inspection (on the airplane) for my last five airplanes. I have done a thorough "pre-buy" on each seller, however.

[1980Mooney]

On 10/17/2020 at 10:22 AM, Jerry Pressley said:

What is the difference in a pre-buy and an annual inspection with discrepancy list?  going prices for each?

No one has commented on cost.  KLRDMD does no pre-buy inspection on purchased planes.  gsxrpilot spends more than a week in the shop on the pre-buy inspection but thinks it's less than 40 hours.  1001001 offered to pay for 25 hours and Doc recommends 25-30 hours.  With most A&P shop rates north of $100/hr in most med-large cities that means $2,500 - $4,000 for a thorough pre-buy...maybe more.  

Now if you are lucky enough to find a plane in your town with multiple local A&Ps that might be the extent of it.  But 1001001 mentions a ferry permit to get the potential purchase to a preferred A&P for a pre-buy inspection.  Potentially a lot of additional time, energy and cost if the plane is in another part of the country regardless if it has to come to you or you have to make multiple trips to it.

Carusoam and 1001001 talk about rolling the pre-buy inspection into an annual while everything is still apart.  Ideal if it is on your turf with your long term A&P...you can exercise some oversight and control.  But if it's in another distant city with an A&P that knows he will never have your future business then there is the possibility that it will be a more "thorough" and costly pre-buy/annual than you ever imagined....but that might still be a good thing long term.

Edited October 18, 2020 by 1980Mooney

[adverseyaw]

That LASAR list is great. They say 6 hours of mechanical inspection, plus 6 hours to open and close the plane. The latter number is probably a worst-case-scenario, as the list doesn't involve pulling the interior nevermind that, it does have the 208B inspection on there. That explains the 6 hours.

(For what it's worth, I'm not arguing to do a short pre-buy. It's just that in my experience, the numbers are closer to 6+6 hours described by LASAR, not 20-30. I guess the log review adds time. I've also never had a mechanic do a flight test -- I've bought four planes, all with pre-buys, and none of the four mechanics wanted to fly the planes.)

Edited October 18, 2020 by adverseyaw

[Jerry Pressley]

Think I will stay with the Annual plus discrepancies since I will know exactly what she needs to be airworthy and can do lots of the work as an owner and the rest with mechanics signature.

[carusoam]

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

No one has commented on cost.  KLRDMD does no pre-buy inspection on purchased planes.  gsxrpilot spends more than a week in the shop on the pre-buy inspection but thinks it's less than 40 hours.  1001001 offered to pay for 25 hours and Doc recommends 25-30 hours.  With most A&P shop rates north of $100/hr in most med-large cities that means $2,500 - $4,000 for a thorough pre-buy...maybe more.  

Now if you are lucky enough to find a plane in your town with multiple local A&Ps that might be the extent of it.  But 1001001 mentions a ferry permit to get the potential purchase to a preferred A&P for a pre-buy inspection.  Potentially a lot of additional time, energy and cost if the plane is in another part of the country regardless if it has to come to you or you have to make multiple trips to it.

Carusoam and 1001001 talk about rolling the pre-buy inspection into an annual while everything is still apart.  Ideal if it is on your turf with your long term A&P...you can exercise some oversight and control.  But if it's in another distant city with an A&P that knows he will never have your future business then there is the possibility that it will be a more "thorough" and costly pre-buy/annual than you ever imagined....but that might still be a good thing long term.

This is where it is important to select your mechanic wisely...

1) Independent of the most recent annual... if they missed something the first time, they might miss it again...

2) Recommendation from a fellow Mooney owner.

3) At least being able to discuss the plane with the current owner would be great... Hey what is this switch for?

4) PPIs for a plane that costs as much as your new car are one level...  When the plane costs as much as your new house... they are probably a different level all together...

5) There is a sliding risk/reward balance that will be different for everybody... that will probably change over time...

6) Expensive planes, that are well kept, and you know the owner... has much less risk... than a plane that has been sitting outdoors for a year, untouched, and the owner has been out of town equally long...

 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

I've only purchased two airplanes and had pre-buys on both. The total bill on each was in the neighborhood of $1800 to $2000. 

I think @KLRDMD has purchased something like 12 or 30 airplanes. Maybe after I get to 10 I'll quit paying for pre-buys as well.

But I always say, we're all adults and are entitled to waste our money however we like.

[KLRDMD]

22 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I've only purchased two airplanes and had pre-buys on both. The total bill on each was in the neighborhood of $1800 to $2000. I think @KLRDMD has purchased something like 12 or 30 airplanes. Maybe after I get to 10 I'll quit paying for pre-buys as well.

17

[Parker_Woodruff]

13 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

17

And the one you've got now according to your profile info is sure different than the previous ones...

[McMooney]

I had an Annual done instead of a prebuy, figured a shop signing their name was worth the extra cost.