Savvy Prebuy (Looks sweet, tastes sour)

[HRM]

Best article on buying a Vintage Mooney (I just sold one, what a headache) I have seen in a long time: Looks Sweet, Tastes Sour When Denver-based Theo first contacted Savvy about doing a prebuy, he identified himself as a first-time airplane buyer but said he knew exactly the aircraft he wanted to buy and was ready to make an offer. Theo was on a limited budget and had been looking at older Mooneys. He’d found a Colorado-based 1966 Mooney M20C—asking price $42,000—and asked us if we could manage a prebuy for him. Before pulling the trigger on this, we asked Theo to provide scanned copies of the Mooney’s logbooks so that we could perform a preliminary review (something we do at no charge). Savvy’s Tony Barrell A&P/IA went through them and told Theo he didn’t think this was a great purchase candidate. For one thing, the aircraft had been in an incident less than a year after it rolled off the production line, when a 23-year-old pilot ground-looped it into a drainage ditch while trying to land at Colorado Springs in a gusty 28-knot crosswind. It was impossible to tell from the maintenance records how extensive the damage was or whether it had been repaired properly. Another concern was a big multi-year gap in the logbooks during which there was no record of the maintenance on or activity/inactivity of the aircraft. That made Tony a little uneasy. Finally, Tony felt that this Mooney’s 180-horsepower normally-aspirated engine might be a bit underpowered at Denver’s mile-high field elevation. So, Tony recommended that Theo look for another purchase candidate. Second Attempt  Not long afterwards, Theo asked Tony to review another Mooney. This one was a 1964 M20E being offered for sale by a broker in Phoenix, Arizona. Asking price was $41,900. The broker’s web page featured lots of pretty photos, with ad copy that read, “This E-model is fast, efficient, and affordable! The most sought-after short-body Mooney because of its 200 hp IO-360. Its great climb rate, cruise speed, and useful load makes this the perfect X/C aircraft.” Now, if you’re looking to buy an older all-metal airplane, Arizona is a great place to find one because corrosion is outlawed by statute. But as Tony went through the Mooney’s maintenance records, it quickly became obvious that this 56-year-old airplane had spent its first five decades living outdoors on a tiedown in North Carolina. Worse, it hadn’t been terribly active and the engine logbook revealed once-a-year oil changes at the annual inspection and no preventive maintenance between annuals. The Lycoming IO-360 had been last overhauled in 1987 (33 years ago). The handwritten logbook entry made it clear that the overhaul had been done “on the cheap”—by an A&P mechanic (NOT a certified repair station), to service limits (NOT new limits), using continued-time channel-chromed cylinders, a reground cam, reground lifters, and the original crankshaft and crankcase. Tony told Theo that this M20E looked like a more worthy candidate than the M20C, but he was a bit spooked by its five decades of living outdoors in North Carolina, it’s once-a-year oil changes, and its 33-year-old el-cheapo overhaul. However, it became apparent that Theo was in love with this airplane and considered the prebuy a mere formality. He said he wanted to move ahead with a prebuy, and Tom Cooper A&P/IA—another of Savvy’s most seasoned account managers with more than 30 years of experience—was assigned to manage it. Scheduling the Prebuy No sooner had Tom introduced himself, Theo sent Tom a copy of the purchase/sale agreement he’d just signed with the Phoenix broker. “You will note the intention is to conclude the sale within 10 days,” Theo told Tom. “The aircraft is at Falcon Field (KFFZ) in Mesa, Arizona. Other than photos I have not seen nor flown the aircraft.” Now, 10 days is an almost impossibly short timeframe to schedule and complete a thorough independent prebuy examination. Most competent shops are booked up for months in advance, and persuading them to shoehorn a prebuy into their shop schedule is not easy since it usually means delaying an annual inspection for a regular customer, something that most shops are understandably reluctant to do. The first shop Tom contacted (in Glendale, Arizona) responded that they no longer work on Mooneys. The broker gave Theo the names of four mechanics at Falcon Field, but Tom ruled them out because Savvy has a strict rule against having prebuys done by any mechanic who has a relationship with the seller or the seller’s broker (since such a prebuy is hardly independent). Ultimately, Tom contacted a shop in Chandler, Arizona that Savvy had used before with excellent results, and they agreed to do the prebuy. The broker agreed to deliver the plane to the Chandler shop the next day. Scope and Detail Tom’s next challenge was to define the scope and detail of the examination. He asking the Chandler shop’s Director of Maintenance (DOM) for an estimate to conduct a prebuy exam in accordance with the Mooney annual inspection checklist plus a borescope inspection of the cylinders. The DOM quote to do this was over $3,000 which was more than Theo was comfortable paying. Tom then proposed using a shorter (53-item) checklist that would involve about half as much labor as the full annual checklist. Theo agreed to this. The DOM asked Tom to define “any items the buyer would consider a show stopper, causing me to stop the examination and report back to you.” At Tom’s suggestion, Theo agreed that the prebuy should be paused if the shop discovered any airworthiness discrepancies that were likely to cost more than $1,000 to repair. Findings A few hours later, the DOM reported back to Tom: “All the steel components of the airframe have surface rust. If I were doing the annual inspection on this airplane, I wouldn’t approve it for return to service without sanding/priming or replacing numerous parts and hardware. I have not yet reviewed the logbooks, but there’s a rather costly Mooney service bulletin calling for inspection of the steel structure that was written specifically for planes like this one. It appears to have been living in a humid/coastal environment.” The DOM attached a half-dozen photographs illustrating the plane’s corrosion issues. “The engine has three chrome and one steel cylinder, and all look good under the borescope,” the DOM continued. “The oil pressure relief valve adjustment is screwed all the way in, which raises a concern. Flexible fuel and oil hoses appear homemade and appear quite dated. We’ll finish up today at 4 pm. Let me know by tomorrow morning if you want me to continue with the examination.” Tom asked the DOM to write up his findings so far, together with repair estimates for each airworthiness discrepancy found. The DOM provided a 64-item discrepancy list. Here is just some of what he found: Left fuel tank drain leaking  $50. Fuel leaks on intake tube.  $100. Oil leaks in several locations.  $500.00 Surface rust and engine mount bolts rusted and old.  $800. Cylinder #2 leaking oil at exhaust port. $1,000. Aileron rod ends have excessive play.  $200. Non standard magneto switch. $500. FAR 91.411 /.413 certs expired.  $800.  (Anticipating static system leaks due to age.) All exterior AN bolts heavily rusted, recommend replacement.  $1,000. Parking brake cylinder leaking.  $300 Cabin door doesn’t open properly, may be bent, needs adjustment.  $100. TSO tags missing on Aft seat belts.  $500. Brake line fittings rusted, old hoses.  $600 Corrosion on wheels apparent. Need to disassemble to determine extent.  If corrosion found excessive, $2,000. All gear actuating push-pull tubes rusted, need to treat.  May require replacement, $3,000. Surface corrosion throughout interior wing skins and fuselage.  Clean and apply Corrosion X for aluminum treatment.   Additional inspection of steel structure recommended per Mooney service bulletin.  Additional expense if hardware replacement necessary,    $2,000. Two large wasp nests removed from Aft spar at flap actuator area. One mud daubber nest attached to Aft side of main spar carry through.  Too much dirt in center section to properly inspect.  $500. Flap actuator and flap pump leaking heavily.  $500. Flap hydraulic hoses dry and hard. $200. All rudder and elevators attachment hardware rusted. Trim mechanism lacking grease and lube.  $300. No weight and balance data available.  If re-weigh and equipment list need to be recreated, add $1,000. Cylinder #1 intake leak. $100 Oil drain-back return lines all leaking, replace. $300. Front crankshaft seal leaking.  $400. Oil pressure relief valve adjustment  leaking. Rust on elevator counterweight rivets.  $400 Static wicks broken at rudder.  $100 Rust on rudder control actuator bracket.  $700     Rust on baggage door handle.  $100. Rust on cabin door handle.  $100. Rust on all landing gear trunions. Recommend further inspection and disassembly to determine extent.  Remove clean and inspect and prime / paint. $3,000.   (If replacement is required, additional costs will apply.) Rust on elevator push-pull rods and actuating bellcrank aft of battery box.  $2,000 Rust on engine mount, sand and prime. $300. Rust on valve covers.  $200. Cylinders #2 & #4 intake gasket leaking.  $100. Engine ground cable to engine truss loose and appears to be automotive.  $200. Baggage door hinges extremely worn.  $1,000. Baggage door hold-open inop.  $500. Instrument system filters dirty.  $200. R/H fuel sending unit leaking.  $500. L/H fuel line at fuselage leaking.  $500. Battery will not hold charge.  $500. Engine last overhauled Dec. 11, 1987. No mention in logbook of required component overhauls at time of engine overhaul (fuel system, Ignition system, etc.) Based on appearance of wing skins, several skins in left wing appear to have been replaced (less surface corrosion). Conclusions “I have carefully read through the discrepancy list,” Tom reported to Theo. “The shop has done a great job of inspecting this aircraft. The DOM’s Mooney experience is obvious. I have to conclude this aircraft has been poorly maintained and was basically flown into the ground.”    “If you decide to purchase this airplane,” Tom continued, “be prepared for a long-term project that will be very costly. My recommendation is  to walk away from this aircraft and look for another that is airworthy and won’t cost you an arm and a leg. Sorry but I can not recommend this aircraft.” Epilogue After striking out on his first two tries—the 1966 Mooney M20C and the 1964 Mooney M20E—Theo has now asked Savvy to review the logbooks of a 1960 Piper PA-24 Comanche. Good luck, Theo!   While none of these airplanes would be our first choice recommendation for a first-time aircraft owner, Theo seems determined to find a high-performance single priced around $40,000. His decision to utilize Savvy’s nationwide prebuy management program (SavvyPrebuy) has at least prevented him from getting into a money pit that he can’t climb out of. It is remarkably common for inexperienced buyers like Theo to become smitten with an aircraft based on an online ad featuring slick ad copy and color photos of nice-looking paint and interior. Sometimes it’s hard for us to convince the buyer that what they really should be focusing on is what’s going on under the paint, cowlings and floorboards. An independent prebuy that is thorough and performed by a knowledgeable inspector with an experienced set of eyes is the only way of knowing whether the apple of the buyer’s eye is a peach or a lemon. Savvy manages literally hundreds of these prebuys every year. Our team of seasoned A&P/IAs have seen plenty of peaches and lemons, and are experts at advising buyers when to buy, walk away, or drive a harder bargain. If you’re in the market for an aircraft, wouldn’t you benefit by having Savvy arrange, manage and interpret the results of your prebuy and advise you what your next move should be?

 

[Davidv]

Very good article from Savvy.  When I bought my first plane I knew almost nothing so I hired someone who I respected and has been buying airplanes his entire life.  Sure, it wasn't cheap, but when I look at all of the planes that I wanted to buy but he wouldn't let me I'm very glad to have paid for this service.  

[gsxrpilot]

Having seen this from the other side, I'm not such a fan of this service. I use Savvy for engine analysis, but wouldn't use them for a pre-buy. I think there should be clear delineation between airworthy items and other issues and deferred maintenance items. On the one hand, a pre-buy should ensure you're buying/selling an airworthy airplane. On the other hand, while pointing out things like rust on the baggage door handle might be interesting, but it's a 50+ year old airplane in the sub $50K price range, it's not going to be flawless. It would be a better service to the customer to have an understanding of what it would take to make this or any cheap airplane, airworthy. And also what deferred maintenance items are likely to come up in the first year and will need attention.

If I was buying a newish Cirrus, Ovation, or Acclaim, sure. But just my opinion, but Savvy's pre-buy by remote control isn't granular enough to help someone trying to get into an older, cheaper, airplane. I'm sure Savvy would have turned me away from the first Mooney I bought, N6XM, but Don Maxwell was good enough to explain exactly what needed to be done now to make it airworthy, and what I'd expect in the first year or so, and recommended that for the price, it was a good airplane. He was spot on and it turned out to be a wonderful Mooney.

Just my $0.02

 

[Rwsavory]

I think this pre-buy went overboard.  Do you really need a inspector to tell you that the baggage door handle is rusty?  They’re supposed to go after the big stuff, not whether there’s a label on the rear seatbelt.  Most of the stuff he found was small potatoes and easily fixed. 

[ArtVandelay]

Yeah, you have to wonder what a $3000 prebuy would cover, dirty carpeting?
When I did my prebuy I considered the engine as a runout (>1500 hours, considerable idle time. So I had them fill the tanks, and told the AP:
Corrosion, had him pull necessary panels to inspect the spar and steel frame and check SB was done properly.
Check fuel tanks for leaks.
Check landing gear and control surfaces.

I think it was about $500.

[Bob - S50]

I see nothing wrong with telling me about everything they find no matter how minor.  At the very least it gives me an idea of how much it might cost me to fix those items.  It's up to me to decide if the total cost is high enough that I need to back out of the deal or go forward.

To be honest, one of my partners is starting to fly more and wants a bit more safety for his family.  He wants to get a Cirrus, not just because it gives him a parachute if the engine quits and there is no good place to land, but it also gives his wife a parachute to use if he becomes incapacitated during flight.  I've told him I'm willing to make that same move.  Since neither of us know much about Cirrus, what to look for in the logbooks, or who to use for a pre-purchase inspection (other than a Cirrus Service Center); this might be something useful for me.

[HRM]

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

I see nothing wrong with telling me about everything they find no matter how minor.  At the very least it gives me an idea of how much it might cost me to fix those items.  It's up to me to decide if the total cost is high enough that I need to back out of the deal or go forward.

Yep. The critics are focussing on minutia when they should look at the big picture. The other side of this speaks to the fact that if one, clearly visible item is rusty, what hidden ones are? Also, why wasn't something obvious taken care of?

[chriscalandro]

Some of these items are insanity.  intake leak on cyl 1 - 100$  Intake leak on cyl 2&4-100$  A full set of gaskets is about $4.  maybe it takes an hour to change them all out.

Fuel leaks on intake tube.  $100. - They already said the intake gasket was bad

They didn't even look at the steel structure it sounds like, just assumed it was bad.

Minimal surface rust on controls - each one takes about 15 minutes as long as it's just surface.

That baggage door and cabin handle....

Cylinder #2 leaking oil at exhaust port. $1,000. 

 

I get that they don't want him to buy the airplane, but come on....

 

[Flymu2]

A lot of Savvy customers own a Cirrus, so they have a large base and significant experience with that brand. I'm guessing less so with Mooney. I used Savvy when I owned a Cirrus and it worked out very well. I especially like their Savvy Analysis. With that, oil analysis, and borescopes I felt I was minimizing the chances of an unexpected engine failure.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Goodness I'm glad I live close to Maxwell and SWTA.

[DavidB]

I engaged Savvy a few weeks ago to look at a Columbia 400. I had a little back and forth with one of their specialists who suggested a couple of shops within an hours flight of the plane for the pre-buy but I had already found a Columbia specialist of my own that was near to it and after extensive conversations with their A & P and studying the logbooks I decided not to proceed. There were several "life-limited" items that were out of their limits so technically the plane hadn't been airworthy for about 6 years. That and only 3 hours on the Hobbs in 18 months. Savvy hadn't picked up on any of that in their free logbook review and had said it looked like a good candidate. I certainly got what I paid for there. 

I contacted Savvy and told them I was pulling the plug and was told that I had 60 days to find another plane to inspect or my $750 was forfeit. In all I probably received about 4 paragraphs of info from Savvy and the chances of me finding a worthy candidate in the next 60 days are remote. I sure didn't see anything in their agreement about that so Caveat Emptor!  

I had used them previously for engine analysis and will again, and I certainly like Mike's books but watch out for the pre-buy inspection! 

BTW - If anybody has an Encore looking for a new home, please let me know.

[coinneach]

Frank at Chandler Aviation sent me this article yesterday when we were discussing the ground-bound C that I had been looking at (he's the one who did the pre on the '64). That E has been on TAP for a while, and I had inquired about it. Funny how they forgot to mention its terrible condition in the ad. It's enough to make you despair of human nature.

[gsxrpilot]

As an experienced Mooney owner of a couple of different airplanes, I could go down this list and make up my mind on what's important and what's not. But as a newbie owner, first ownership experience, and not knowing anything about Mooneys, that pre-buy is not very helpful.

If the rust on the baggage door is indicative of rust in the latch mechanism which might allow the door to blow off and damage the tail, well... then tell me that. Don't tell me it's gonna cost me $100 to fix the rust on the handle. Again, if I'm an expert already, and I just need all the data put in front of me, then fine. But then I probably don't need to pay Savvy to do this for me.

As I related before, my experience with the pre-buys on my airplanes were much different. Don Maxwell produced a very comprehensive list and each item was marked as an airworthy issue or not an airworthy issue. Then he talked through the report with me on the phone to explain why some things were critical and other things were just deferred maintenance, and yet other things were just a 50 year old airplane. 

If I take a $40K Mooney to pre-buy, I'm not expecting Bob's E or John's F. At that price point, you're looking for a very neglected BUT airworthy airplane.

[carusoam]

There seem to be two different camps when it comes to buying a Mooney...

Camp 1: Mooney costs as much as your brand new car...

Camp2: Mooney costs as much as your brand new house...

Both Mooneys are best served with some form of pre-purchase inspection...

Because the PPI is about protecting your wallet...

There are certain parts of any plane that need to be looked into... Mostly AW issues, specifically Spar corrosion...

What gets done with this information is interesting...

If you wrote a statement In your sales agreement, that there will be no rust on any parts of the plane... congrats, the seller has already agreed to replace that rusty handle for you..!  

The biggest challenge for first time buyers... they may be thinking a test drive may somehow prove this is the right plane to buy...

Experienced buyers prefer that 300 line list of items to be organized in a few sections...

• AW
• Non-AW
• Avionics

The key things I’m looking for... is proof that everything that was advertised... is actually working, and not failing...
 

So... the Savvy ad might not really cover all plane buyers... but, it does cover what a PPI is... and that can be refreshing...

I have purchased both types of planes... car vs house.... and a third plane that didn’t get through its PPI... it was so bent it didn’t need to open panels to fail...

I went for a flight with the owner... thinking it would be good to get a feeling for how he flew the plane... the landing was more of a crash with the earth...   and missing rivets were a result... (reasons I don’t own a retractable Piper...)

There are no standards for PPIs... because they are as unique as the individuals that want them...

Why did they select two Mooneys to fail?
 

It isn’t hard to be a marketing guy... They could have had a success story in there...
let’s say there is a guy named Paul, he selects an M20K, and it successfully passes several tests... but a V-band is falling off the exhaust system... They check the thickness of the transition tube between the exhaust valve and the turbo, and decide that it is ready for replacement...  it was magically paper thin...

New pipe, new Vband, Paul is a happy camper!  Now a new owner of the finest aircraft available... 

Looks like Theo needs some better advice... he should talk to Paul...   

Best regards,

-a-

[VinceCB]

I can't blame the A&P for listing all the items - that's what he was paid to do after all. Maintenance is the owner's responsibility and he should have some idea of what is an airworthiness item and what can be differed. The story doesn't say how the A&P presented the info to his client but I wouldn't assume he told the client that all items needed to be rectified at annual. As a buyer, I would be rather disappointed if the mechanic simply omitted items because he made the call that it was irrelevant.

When I bought my Mooney, a number of things were pointed out to me that will be differed, possibly for a few years, but I am really glad that I know about them so that I can budget for the work and adjust my upgrades budget to match.

[Sixstring2k]

For some reason this article and the situation doesn’t seat well with me, it felt more like Theo was not property advice by savvy (just my opinion). Every aircraft you run into will have issues the question is as previously mention by Paul and carusoam is what’s 1-airworthy must fixed now, 2-have to be address in the future and 3-you can live with it. And also as Paul has mention in other post, you get what you paid for. 

The “DOM” did as he was paid to do he got business from savvy to performed this inspection per what ever guide lines the inspection had but some of this stuff is BS. Did theo speak to the shop to get the other opinion from then? The article does not mention that, did it go straight thru the savvy rep as the sole point of contact ? Because i bet you if he had talk to the shop that did the inspection he would have had a better understanding of the status of that plane and maybe the outcome would have being different, Maybe he should have being present during the prebuy inspection maybe the first day and get a feel of how it was going.

I don’t like this quote “Ultimately, Tom contacted a shop in Chandler, Arizona that Savvy had used before ” Savvy by name has a reputation in GA. Business is giving to shops that have a “good” history with them? What or who determines that good history? I don’t know if is just me, but if i am a shop with limited business i would do well to be on there good side and if I am in the naughty list how did i get there and how can I clarify it? I don’t know how the exchange between shop and savvy would be and I don’t want to put into question the integrity of any fellow mechanic or savvy but I just don’t like that line. 

Edited October 1, 2020 by Sixstring2k

[Frank B.]

I think that Theo needs to raise his budget by about $100K if he wants to find the perfect airplane. Or, spend the 40K on a 50 year old Mooney that has good solid bones and plan on some progressive maintenance and on going expense. To me it was always a labor of love. 
 

Frank

[Guest]

Having done lots of PPI’s over the years, I’d say as a maintainer  “damned if you do, damned if you don’t”

As I’ve said in these pages before, there is no standard to which a PPI is completed, it’s up to the buyer and maintainer to determine the level of inspection required or desired.

I try to inspect the airplane fully, presenting the own with a detailed list similar to the one above, noting airworthy and non airworthy items.  With this knowledge the buyer can make and informed decision on buying the airplane.  Non airworthy items still require money to ultimately repair, money which the buyer may not have, or may not want to spend.

Clarence

 

 

 

[ValkyrieRider]

On 9/30/2020 at 4:38 PM, coinneach said:

Frank at Chandler Aviation sent me this article yesterday when we were discussing the ground-bound C that I had been looking at (he's the one who did the pre on the '64). That E has been on TAP for a while, and I had inquired about it. Funny how they forgot to mention its terrible condition in the ad. It's enough to make you despair of human nature.

I assumed the pre-buy in Chandler was done by Frank at Chandler Aviation.  He is very thorough and knows Mooneys very well.  I totally trust to identify all potential issues during a pre-buy.  

[JimB]

We all do understand that the purpose of this "article" is to sell a service, right? I could go inspect any 50 year old aircraft and provide a laundry list of items that if you were to have all of them corrected it would cost a lot of $$$. (....Rust on valve covers.  $200....right....)

[HRM]

3 minutes ago, JimB said:

We all do understand that the purpose of this "article" is to sell a service, right? I could go inspect any 50 year old aircraft and provide a laundry list of items that if you were to have all of them corrected it would cost a lot of $$$. (....Rust on valve covers.  $200....right....)

Absolutely, but the laundry-list aspect of it should make potential buyers beware. It is not rocket science, or voodoo magic, to doing a pre-buy on a Mooney in spite of the mystique that seems to surround it. What you have is people that are essentially clueless about Mooneys other than knowing them as fast and having a cult following. They are wanting to buy into it on the cheap, without doing their homework. What they also don't know is that every vintage Mooney is pretty much a project. Where a buyer comes into that project is essentially the purpose of the prebuy.

[Will.iam]

One thing I picked up on researching about buying an airplane was that interviewing the owner and how they maintain their airplane can speak louder than what a prebuy would show.  So when the seller of my plane agreed to do any type of prebuy inspection I wanted with me there I jumped at the opportunity to see the issues for myself.  we spent 2 days opening up panels, compression tests, borescope, jacked up and swung the gear, practiced manually lowering the gear, checking the donuts, looking at the frame, and going over the logbooks.  checking the wing for leaks with full fuel for 2 days. He installed the Garmin 345 for ADS-B at the last year.  The attention to details and replacing what the previous owner had done to make it right like a car alternator, with an approved aviation alternator, as well as had all the 337's and AD's that were checked and complied with and logbook entries in a nice orderly fashion, really helped put me at ease that the airplane was well taken care of. The engine is at  1600 out of 1800  and the prop deice is inop with original paint but the price reflected that as I would not been able to afford the airplane if it had a low time engine already on it.  And when that time comes I'll get to chose what options I want to do at time of overhaul.

[Raptor05121]

Tis but a small list

[Alan Fox]

I want to see the Mechanic , who will change out 4 intake gaskets in one hour.....  If someone changes 4 intake gaskets in 1 hour , they will never work on anything I own.... Not even the wheels on my trash can...

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

I want to see the Mechanic , who will change out 4 intake gaskets in one hour.....  If someone changes 4 intake gaskets in 1 hour , they will never work on anything I own.... Not even the wheels on my trash can...

I know what you mean,  way too slow for my liking.

Clarence