Panel adventure - what would you do?

[Browncbr1]

If you have the PC wing leveler already installed in your plane, you can install a Brittain accuflite AP that can interface with the G5’s for HDG and GPSS.   It’s a little difficult to source the bi-805 valve, but with patience, they are out there with and without that part number stamped on it.  I love my Brittain. Cheap and works extremely well.  I think I spent 1amu and it is a very easy install.  

Edited September 27, 2020 by Browncbr1

[JamesMooney]

15 hours ago, carusoam said:

FC,

See if you can update your avatar data area...

Include what plane you are flying and where you are at...
 

Toss in an iconic pic of you and your plane...

This helps MSers recognize you and better answer your questions...

Best regards,

-a-

Will do - very soon! 

[JamesMooney]

7 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

If you have the PC wing leveler already installed in your plane, you can install a Brittain accuflite AP that can interface with the G5’s for HDG and GPSS.   It’s a little difficult to source the bi-805 valve, but with patience, they are out there with and without that part number stamped on it.  I love my Brittain. Cheap and works extremely well.  I think I spent 1amu and it is a very easy install.  

Wow! Am I reading you right that - assuming the PC wing leveler still works - I can add a Brittain AP for hdg and GPSS for only 1AMU? 

[carusoam]

7 hours ago, FlyingCanuck said:

Wow! Am I reading you right that - assuming the PC wing leveler still works - I can add a Brittain AP for hdg and GPSS for only 1AMU? 

Oddly enough...

A 60s device, with 70s updates... that has horizontal tracking capability for WAAS GPS... and can hold altitude for hours on end...

And nobody can come up with something better in decades...

How hard can it be? (In 2020)

Best regards,

-a-

[Browncbr1]

On 9/27/2020 at 4:31 PM, FlyingCanuck said:

Wow! Am I reading you right that - assuming the PC wing leveler still works - I can add a Brittain AP for hdg and GPSS for only 1AMU? 

the gpss part is handled through the G5, which will output heading left/right signals.. yea.. i love the cheap, reliable brittain.  no 2amu servos to worry about...  3m electrical tape is about all you need to service them.  

[McMooney]

8 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

the gpss part is handled through the G5, which will output heading left/right signals.. yea.. i love the cheap, reliable brittain.  no 2amu servos to worry about...  3m electrical tape is about all you need to service them.  

unless the boots are really damaged, then a bike patch kit may work, i uhmm heard. 8)

Edited September 29, 2020 by McMooney

[jetdriven]

On 9/27/2020 at 6:33 AM, Davidv said:

GNX375 for NAV/ADS-B - $9K installed

GTR225 Comm - $3.5K installed

PMA450b - $3.5K installed

2 G5s - $8K installed?

This gives you everything you need for ADS-B, great navigator, and full approach capability.

 

 

I’m doing a 2 G5 install later this month, but just the parts and hardware it is almost 7 grand

[Hector]

If you have the PC wing leveler already installed in your plane, you can install a Brittain accuflite AP that can interface with the G5’s for HDG and GPSS.   It’s a little difficult to source the bi-805 valve, but with patience, they are out there with and without that part number stamped on it.  I love my Brittain. Cheap and works extremely well.  I think I spent 1amu and it is a very easy install.  

Making sure I understand. I have Accutrak in mine, but also have a brand new Accuflite that I never installed. You are saying that with a couple of G5’s I could add the Accuflite and the G5 HSI would drive the Accuflite in both heading mode and GPSS steering?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vance Harral]

As a huge fan of the Brittain autopilot installed in our airplane, but having spent 15 years working on and maintaining it, I just want to add a dose of reality for the OP to consider about starting with a Brittain wing leveler and crafting an autopilot solution.

First, the Brittain factory is - and has been for some time - in "hibernation", much like Mooney has been in recent times.  Jerry Walters, the principal owner/operator, passed away in December 2017, and the business subsequently lost both its brick-and-mortar shop, and its repair certificate.  Brittain still returns calls, can sometimes help you with technical questions, etc.  But they are not staffed or equipped to service or repair any existing parts, nor do they have any parts to sell.  Sure, there are parts to be had on the used market, but these are all sold "as is".  That's fine for mechanical parts like the servo jar/boots that can be worked on by any A&P with a modicum of street smarts (whether this is strictly legal is murky, but that's a separate question).  Not so for complex parts such as the electronic head unit, or even the turn coordinator with integrated shuttle valve.  At a certain point you run into dead ends.  We're all rooting for Brittain to come out of hibernation, of course, and I don't rule out their doing so.  But they've been laying low for almost 3 years now, and the longer that situation drags on, the less likely they are to return as an active concern.

Second, lots of people are suggesting dual G5s for an integrated AI/DG/HSI solution.  And a great solution that is.  But you cannot legally connect a Brittain autopilot to a G5 for CDI left/right information, because the draft drawing from Jerry to do so has never been FAA approved.  Therefore, legally flying an approach or even just tracking an enroute course with the Brittain requires a conventional CDI separate from the G5 DG/HSI, which has conventional left/right outputs.  If the OP already has such a CDI attached to a radio they intend to keep, that may not be an issue.  But you'd always have to use that #2 CDI for the autopilot, never the #1 G5 CDI/HSI .

Finally, just make sure you have reasonable expectations of the system.  The accuracy of Brittain's heading hold mechanism is difficult to tune to better than 5-10 degrees; its course tracking tolerates at least 1 "dot" of deviation and requires slight tweaking of the heading select; and altitude hold if you have it is only good to within +/- 200' in moderate turbulence (i.e. when you'd really like to have altitude hold in the first place).

With all that said, do I still love the B5 in our airplane?  Absolutely!  Least expensive solution available by an order of magnitude, and most (not all) of the system can be maintained at your local shop by your local A&P.  For Mooneys with a Brittain already installed, no reason not to keep using and trying to maintain it.  And I'll keep rooting for Cecelia to find a new investor and bring the company back to active status.  But I'm hesitant to encourage someone to embark on a quest to acquire and install an Accu-track or B5/B6/etc from scratch.  I think it's likely to be a significant project, with a significant chance of simply running into a dead end until someone totals a Mooney with a working system.  Whether that work and frustration is worth the many AMUs of savings vs. any other autopilot solution is up to the OP.  But it's not the no-brainer it's sometimes made out to be here on Mooneyspace.  Caveat emptor and all that.

[Vance Harral]

9 minutes ago, Hector said:

Making sure I understand. I have Accutrak in mine, but also have a brand new Accuflite that I never installed. You are saying that with a couple of G5’s I could add the Accuflite and the G5 HSI would drive the Accuflite in both heading mode and GPSS steering?

Mechanically and electrically?  Yes.  Legally?  No.  There is no certified drawing that authorizes this, therefore no qualified avionics shop will do so.

[Davidv]

4 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I’m doing a 2 G5 install later this month, but just the parts and hardware it is almost 7 grand

Ok thanks, I had thought 2500 per G5 but I guess they charge more for the HSI version.

[Niko182]

10 minutes ago, Davidv said:

Ok thanks, I had thought 2500 per G5 but I guess they charge more for the HSI version.

I thought its 2200 for the ai and like 2700 for the hsi

[Skates97]

59 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

I thought its 2200 for the ai and like 2700 for the hsi

I just bought them a month ago from @Avionics Source, Chase was very helpful as always and a pleasure to do business with. The G5 AI was $2185 and the G5 HSI was $2995. They came with the new lightning protection modules which simplifies some of the wiring. However, you also need to buy a GAD13 and an OAT sensor, Davtron sells an approved one that is listed in the G5 installation manual and is much less expensive than the Garmin OAT sensor. On top of that add in wire for the CAN bus, circuit breakers, regular wire for power/ground, shielded wires for the RS-232 and ARINC 429 connections, connectors, terminals, etc... and things add up quickly.

[Ragsf15e]

45 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

I just bought them a month ago from @Avionics Source, Chase was very helpful as always and a pleasure to do business with. The G5 AI was $2185 and the G5 HSI was $2995. They came with the new lightning protection modules which simplifies some of the wiring. However, you also need to buy a GAD13 and an OAT sensor, Davtron sells an approved one that is listed in the G5 installation manual and is much less expensive than the Garmin OAT sensor. On top of that add in wire for the CAN bus, circuit breakers, regular wire for power/ground, shielded wires for the RS-232 and ARINC 429 connections, connectors, terminals, etc... and things add up quickly.

Gmu-11 too or is that priced in as part of the HSI?

[Skates97]

1 minute ago, Ragsf15e said:

Gmu-11 too or is that priced in as part of the HSI?

HSI kit comes with the GMU11 and GAD29B. At least that is how it came from Chase. If buying from a different supplier I would check the contents of the HSI kit. Even if you don't have a AP you still need the GAD29B for it to be an HSI, otherwise it is just a DG.

[Ragsf15e]

7 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

HSI kit comes with the GMU11 and GAD29B. At least that is how it came from Chase. If buying from a different supplier I would check the contents of the HSI kit. Even if you don't have a AP you still need the GAD29B for it to be an HSI, otherwise it is just a DG.

Gothcha.  If you have the time and ability, you can definitely realize some savings.  My G5s were ~$12k installed.  Now that includes removing the old HSI, components and wiring, but it’s definitely not “cheap”.  It’s close to the guesstimate method of avionics install... installation cost equals equipment price.  Obviously there are lots of variables, but that’s the ballpark.

[M20F-1968]

On 9/25/2020 at 12:03 PM, FlyingCanuck said:

Alright MS.... if I gave you two budgets - $12-16k and $18-22k - what would you do with this panel?

Call the Salvage Yards - start with Wentworth, look on e-bay...  ?Do the work yourself with supervision.  The knowledge you gain will help you maintain the avionics.  An owner can do the layout, make the panel and structural/mechanical parts of installation.  A owner can make wiring harnesses if careful and if he pays attention to all the small details, but you will need a certified person willing to supervise your work.

John Breda

 

 

[jetdriven]

On 9/29/2020 at 3:20 PM, Davidv said:

Ok thanks, I had thought 2500 per G5 but I guess they charge more for the HSI version.

The HSI version is three grand plus the GSP13 and the GTP59 oat, that’s 500$,  there’s $60 in canbus cable $60 in breakers, $60 for the 2 G5 adapter plates, another  hundred bucks and wire and connectors and stuff

[Paul_Havelka]

On 9/29/2020 at 4:32 PM, jetdriven said:

I’m doing a 2 G5 install later this month, but just the parts and hardware it is almost 7 grand

@jetdrivenbefore I sold my pa28 I had spoken with several IAs and the consensus was that I could buy and install a single certified unit and add the second unit being an experimental one. I had already installed the certified hsi and the aircraft was prewired for the AI. After speaking with my IA and a few others just to be safe they agreed with my interpretation of the g5 stc in that if you buy the single certified unit it the stc actually allows for the installation of a single or dual unit so why pay for the stc twice?

[ArtVandelay]

[mention=7887]jetdriven[/mention]before I sold my pa28 I had spoken with several IAs and the consensus was that I could buy and install a single certified unit and add the second unit being an experimental one. I had already installed the certified hsi and the aircraft was prewired for the AI. After speaking with my IA and a few others just to be safe they agreed with my interpretation of the g5 stc in that if you buy the single certified unit it the stc actually allows for the installation of a single or dual unit so why pay for the stc twice?

Does the experimental, and it’s software which is different I believe than the certified models, is legal as a backup to the certified G5?


Tom

[Paul_Havelka]

58 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Does the experimental, and it’s software which is different I believe than the certified models, is legal as a backup to the certified G5?


Tom

The hardware and software are the same whether it is a certified or experimental unit.  Essentially you are paying the premium for the STC.

 

If you buy the dual certified unit package you get a single STC, SA01818WI, and permission letter.  his is the same STC and permission letter that you get if you purchase a single certified unit.  If that letter covers both single and dual units and the hardware and software is no different between them then why should you have to pay a second time for an STC and permission letter you already posses?  Obviously this wasn't intentional by big G but I would say this is similar to the situation with the verbiage in the GNX375 STC that essentially lets you replace the entire 6 pack with 2 GNX375 units.  

 

Of course, this is all subject to what your IA believes and whether or not they agree with this interpretation.  If they do not then it is up to you to be able to articulate why you believe so and to convince them you are right.  I led my conversation with that the STC was no different for the single or dual certified unit so why if you pay for it for a single unit why should I have to pay for it a second time when I already have permission and the STC.  On that logic they all agreed with me and this was not based solely off of our conversation.  Several asked for the STC and did some research of their own and agreed that it may not specifically allow it but it doesn't preclude it either and since there was precedence from big G that you can install 2 units with a single permission letter and STC then there is no difference.

[carusoam]

Nice work Paul!

You clearly described the details of the STC system!  And how it works...

Complete with the known quirks, and work arounds!

Thanks for writing that up.

Best regards,

-a-

[jetdriven]

the STC certified unit has a different part number.  that may be the only difference, but its something to overcome and explain.

[JamesMooney]

Updating this thread - closing in on purchase of a M20F. It will have:

GNS430W
STEC 60-2 w GPSS
HSI
Stratus ADS-B
Fuel Fuel + digital EGT/CHT

It needs:

A new second radio (current KX175 is inop) - would you do COM only? NAV/COM? GPS/COM? Or a used 2nd GNS430W?
A new audio panel (has a legacy analog audio panel)
Maybe G5s (replace the AI + HSI one day)

What would you all suggest? Esp. regarding the 2nd radio: COM, NAV/COM, GPS/COM, or GNS430W?

Typical mission is 200-400 nm IFR.

Edited October 27, 2020 by FlyingCanuck

[tmo]

GNS430W

PMA450 when the time comes

Rest as needed.