Anybody with Surefly installation experience

[carusoam]

A few people have had some time figuring out the timing gear challenge... there were a few odd ball gears in the field that made themselves present as the SF went into wider distribution...

Sorry to hear about the surprise extra work...

Thanks for sharing the details for other MSers...

Look for the oddity that occurs when switching between mags... from L, through R, to both... the old program skips a beat and causes a miss...

The inflight mag check with a miss causes a bit of discomfort for some...

Another solution for that is the new style push button ignition switch with dual switches for the mags...

PP thoughts only... not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[kmyfm20s]

I would definitely recommend having someone with experience install the SureFly. If I was to install my system again I would say it would be an honest 7 hours on an Ovation that has the battery in the tail. So maybe add a couple hours for good measure. Running the power through the cabin, running leads for new slick harness, capacitor, RPM resistor, power conditioner, installing and timing SF.  For the newbie installer I could see how 17 hours would be possible. I felt like the timing was very simple but I don’t have the gear which I heard people having problems with. Power supply gremlins and the rpm resistor created a bunch of down time and tumble shooting for me that would be avoided on a second installation.  With that said I am real happy with SF and I am seeing gains in all areas you would expect from an ignition. 

[carusoam]

Great pirep for the sure fly for the IO550, K!

Best regards,

-a-

[Browncbr1]

I installed my SF in August..  I had the $350 gear problem, but Jason at SF shipped me one free exchange.  I was glad about that for sure..    Ground ops are much improved, but I had to go back to fixed timing..   rate of climb was cut in half at 7000’ and above.  In climb you want high rpm and ROP..  with the advance, it robbed all the ROP power making ability and made temps go up too high.  LoP is good and smooth and all, but no speed gain and I was having to spend more time in climb...   folks out west at high elevations report they must use fixed timing.   It’s no problem if you climb to 5 or 6000’ or less and then pull power back and go LOP.   , but if you routinely operate higher, I would recommend fixed timing.  I’m also of the opinion that the advancing May get you into the red box unsuspectingly, especially ROP.  

All this could be solved if you could add a switch to the panel to switch between fixed and variable timing, but.......

Ive put about 50 hours or so on my install... I’m still flying around with the slick mag in a box in the baggage compartment.   

[philiplane]

It took me less time to install two Surefly SIMs, one on each engine, of my Aztec. The hardest part is pulling the power wires from the forward compartment where the battery lives, through the sidewalls, and out to the engines. Even so, that is a one day job. All in, I had about 9 hours for the two units installed. Not sure why it would take so much longer to pull a wire through the right sidewall of a Mooney, to get to the aft mounted battery...

[kmyfm20s]

42 minutes ago, philiplane said:

It took me less time to install two Surefly SIMs, one on each engine, of my Aztec. The hardest part is pulling the power wires from the forward compartment where the battery lives, through the sidewalls, and out to the engines. Even so, that is a one day job. All in, I had about 9 hours for the two units installed. Not sure why it would take so much longer to pull a wire through the right sidewall of a Mooney, to get to the aft mounted battery...

Your hired!

[McMooney]

On 11/18/2020 at 3:30 PM, flyingchump said:

I just got the bill for the insulation of a surefly and almost fell off my chair.  At the moment, I'm doubting the value/claims of Surefly. 

Prior to today everyone has said "its easy to install" or "just a couple of hours".  Well a "couple of hours" is apparently 17.1 hours! At almost $100/hr that's $1700 just for the labor.  Its not the $ that bothers me (well is it a bit), its the difference in expectations.  I don't feel like the shop is ripping me off, they had issues installing this thing... On a different plane maybe its faster/easier to install but on my E...  No.  

So at $1425 for the surefly, $1,700 for the labor, and $500 for half an ignition harness I'm totaling roughly $3,650. 

Hindsight is 20/20 and had I known that it was going to cost $3600+ total, I might have made a different choice.  I have other maintenance issues to correct and this one was not necessary.  Why the hell didn't I just have the old mag IRAN'd for $500?  The plane was running just fine and I could have bought a lot of fuel for 3K saved. 

For others considering a surefly...  If you can install a surefly yourself or with the help of an A&P friend, go for it.  The value of having a 2000+ TBO is easy to justify the cost.  But having a shop install it can rack up the labor and tip the scales of value.  

And before anyone says something like "if you cant pay for it, don't fly" just know that comments like that are not helpful.  I can pay the bill but the value of the "upgrade" diminishes with elevating costs.  

I'm going to pick up the plane tomorrow and if the surefly doesn't live up to its performance expectations, I'm probably going to regret it for a while.  I'll report back after I fly for a few hours.

omg, that's just insane.  My surefly was installed during annual, so some of the interior was out anyway but if i remember correctly i think it may have been 5 or 6 hours ?  

[Browncbr1]

It took me 45 minutes to remove my left wall interior and run the wire from the batter to the firewall and put the interior back together.    It takes maybe 10 minutes to remove the left mag, 10-15 minutes to swap the drive gear.    10 minutes to program the sim..   the most time consuming is getting the sim bolted to the case at 0 degrees.   Maybe 20 minutes..   then 10-15 minutes to put the harness on the sim and back on the plugs.   15 minutes to pull it out and test run it.   10 minutes to put the cow back on.   So about 2 hours if you know what you’re doing.   Add an hour if you’re taking your sweet time, add another hour if you don’t know what you’re doing.     4 hours MAX.     17 is ridiculous.  

If you don’t have the right drive gear, don’t spend hours trying to get the timing exact.. it won’t happen.  Just install 2-3 degrees retarded or source a new drive gear.    If you have the reversible gear already and you install the sim and realize you need to turn the gear cog 180 degrees, add 45-60 minutes for removing, r&r drive gear and reinstall sim.  

[flyingchump]

10 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

It took me 45 minutes to remove my left wall interior and run the wire from the batter to the firewall and put the interior back together.    It takes maybe 10 minutes to remove the left mag, 10-15 minutes to swap the drive gear.    10 minutes to program the sim..   the most time consuming is getting the sim bolted to the case at 0 degrees.   Maybe 20 minutes..   then 10-15 minutes to put the harness on the sim and back on the plugs.   15 minutes to pull it out and test run it.   10 minutes to put the cow back on.   So about 2 hours if you know what you’re doing.   Add an hour if you’re taking your sweet time, add another hour if you don’t know what you’re doing.     4 hours MAX.     17 is ridiculous.  

If you don’t have the right drive gear, don’t spend hours trying to get the timing exact.. it won’t happen.  Just install 2-3 degrees retarded or source a new drive gear.    If you have the reversible gear already and you install the sim and realize you need to turn the gear cog 180 degrees, add 45-60 minutes for removing, r&r drive gear and reinstall sim.  

I'm flying down to see you for all my maintenance needs going forward!

[Gary0747]

23 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

In climb you want high rpm and ROP..  with the advance, it robbed all the ROP power

Why does advancing ROP Rob power?

[Ragsf15e]

3 hours ago, Gary0747 said:

Why does advancing ROP Rob power?

I haven’t had this experience either.  Mine is on my F model (IO-360A1A).  I did notice slightly warmer CHTs, especially above above 8k.  Maybe 10 degrees each, but my cylinders are all still around 360 in cruise.  Climb required being slightly richer than before.

I didn’t notice any drop in rate of climb.  I live in Washington state and commonly cruise 10-12k.  I have had the SF ROP at 14,000’.  ROP I had minimal (if any) performance gain, but definitely no loss.  LOP, I’m seeing several knots faster, smoother, further LOP if desired, but I typically run about 15 degrees LOP.

[Gary0747]

Yes theoretically an EI can be programmed to advance at best power or best economy. I suspect the Surefly is set to operate in between.  In any case it does not even begin advancing ignition timing until mp is less than 25 inches at 2700 rpm. The absolute pressure at 7000 feet is slightly over 23 inches so it is really hard to believe it has advanced very far and that climb performance would be degraded at all.  Hard to believe it would be half.  Perhaps he has to adjust power due to cylinder temps and that hurts the climb rate?  I have good cooling and seldom see cylinder temps much over 330 degrees so advancing timing not an issue with cooling. 

[Ragsf15e]

3 hours ago, Gary0747 said:

Yes theoretically an EI can be programmed to advance at best power or best economy. I suspect the Surefly is set to operate in between.  In any case it does not even begin advancing ignition timing until mp is less than 25 inches at 2700 rpm. The absolute pressure at 7000 feet is slightly over 23 inches so it is really hard to believe it has advanced very far and that climb performance would be degraded at all.  Hard to believe it would be half.  Perhaps he has to adjust power due to cylinder temps and that hurts the climb rate?  I have good cooling and seldom see cylinder temps much over 330 degrees so advancing timing not an issue with cooling. 

Yes, I think if you have one of the airplanes that already runs hot and then add a SF, it’s gonna be even warmer and worrisome at high altitudes.  Especially climbing in warm air.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Ragsf15e

[Browncbr1]

23 hours ago, Gary0747 said:

Why does advancing ROP Rob power?

Because advancing is optimized for slow burning LOP.   If ROP, then it is a advanced too much for the fast burning mixture.

[Browncbr1]

10 hours ago, Gary0747 said:

Yes theoretically an EI can be programmed to advance at best power or best economy. I suspect the Surefly is set to operate in between.  In any case it does not even begin advancing ignition timing until mp is less than 25 inches at 2700 rpm. The absolute pressure at 7000 feet is slightly over 23 inches so it is really hard to believe it has advanced very far and that climb performance would be degraded at all.  Hard to believe it would be half.  Perhaps he has to adjust power due to cylinder temps and that hurts the climb rate?  I have good cooling and seldom see cylinder temps much over 330 degrees so advancing timing not an issue with cooling. 

I usually get around 700 fpm up there with cht 330F or less, with advancing enabled it’s about 3 to 400 feet max...and hot.   My base timing is 25....  Believe it or be my guest to install yours with advancing enabled..  users with 20 degree base timing might be ok

Edited November 24, 2020 by Browncbr1

[Browncbr1]

19 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I haven’t had this experience either.  Mine is on my F model (IO-360A1A).  I did notice slightly warmer CHTs, especially above above 8k.  Maybe 10 degrees each, but my cylinders are all still around 360 in cruise.  Climb required being slightly richer than before.

I didn’t notice any drop in rate of climb.  I live in Washington state and commonly cruise 10-12k.  I have had the SF ROP at 14,000’.  ROP I had minimal (if any) performance gain, but definitely no loss.  LOP, I’m seeing several knots faster, smoother, further LOP if desired, but I typically run about 15 degrees LOP.

Is your base timing 20dbtdc or 25 like mine?

[carusoam]

Advanced timing... usually provides a bit more power, at the cost of higher CHTs... 25°BTDC in place of 20°BTDC...

So... advancing timing, getting hotter CHTs, and not getting more power... is a hint of something not quite right...

Is the advancing going further than 25°?

See if @jetdriven is familiar with this situation...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

20 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

Is your base timing 20dbtdc or 25 like mine?

20 btdc.

[Browncbr1]

9 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

20 btdc.

That makes sense now as to why you’re ok...    the advancing is too much for engines timed at 25...  

 several years ago my ia mistakenly timed mine to 20°, it ran like crap and was several kts slower and climb was not as good, ....It also ran to cool so, I’ve always been set at 25 since.  

Edited November 24, 2020 by Browncbr1

[Gary0747]

One of the very data driven guys over on the Vans web site ran some data on a parallel valve IO360, finding max true air speed versus degrees of advance with his EI.  (Obviously not a Surefly.)  He found max TAS was obtained between 28 and 33 degrees advanced. I forget which altitude but not sure if it matters relative to the max power peak location (not magnitude).   So if your Surefly base timing is set at 20 degrees btc and the Surefly max advance is 13 degrees as reported it puts you slight on the back side of the max power timing curve. Backside meaning slightly offset toward the best economy point. 

[Danb]

On 11/21/2020 at 9:05 PM, McMooney said:

omg, that's just insane.  My surefly was installed during annual, so some of the interior was out anyway but if i remember correctly i think it may have been 5 or 6 hours ?  

My surefly also installed at annual I believe the install was about 3 hours by a MSC

[FREDsTL]

I installed a Surefly in my C182 in October.  A few weeks later had the first event  occur taking off from the airport on a moonless night.  I had to declare and landed immediately.  Since it functioned well for several weeks, i thought maybe a bird hit the propeller.  BUT, after much investigation, several pattern only test flights during the day and review of all my G1000 data we concluded that we were getting the voltage spike shut down issue.  After installation of the power filter all has been fine.  I truly believe that they should just supply the damn filter for all 24 volt systems.  It is a butt puckering experience to have unnecessary apparent mag failures, especially at night when you can't tell what has happened with certainty.  Said all of this to the FSDO as well which investigated.

[PT20J]

I heard from Jason today that Surefly has received FAA approval for the new version with the improved voltage regulator that alleviates the voltage spike reset issue and expect to be shipping in a few weeks.

Skip

[Will.iam]

On 11/24/2020 at 4:31 AM, Danb said:

My surefly also installed at annual I believe the install was about 3 hours by a MSC

Which MSC center did you take it to?

[Danb]

Weber in Lancaster Pa