Slight Rant on Aircraft Buying

[LevelWing]

I'm certainly no 231 expert but thanks to the folks here that are, I've learned enough to know what I'm looking for when shopping for a 231. I suppose this is more of a "buyer beware" kind of thing and just a general attitude warning. I've been calling a few places to inquire about various Mooney 231's that are listed for sale and everyone I have talked to has been helpful until today. This morning I called Scott MacDonald Aircraft to inquire about a 231 he has listed for sale. The ad doesn't list the engine model number or if it had the Merlyn waste gate or intercooler upgrades so I wanted to ask. His response was the following:

- It has the TSIO-360-GB engine

- No waste gate or intercooler 

- I read too much on the internet and it doesn't need them because the engine is just fine.

- He has a lot of time in these and he's never had a temperature issue

- For the price he has listed it at I can go out and buy the upgrades myself

This is why I've been doing my research: to ensure I get the aircraft I want and not worry about its performance or longevity. I wasn't impressed with how he handled the phone call, his dismissal of my requirements, or his attitude towards me. He could be a good guy having a bad day - we all do - but as a result of that interaction I'm no longer interested in purchasing an aircraft from him (requirements not withstanding). I understand the aircraft can fly without those upgrades, but based on the information provided in this forum it seems like a smart idea to have them.

I'm not in sales but I would like to think I wouldn't dismiss a customer's requirements but rather try to understand them and then guide them as best as I could (we didn't even get to the critical altitude changes or anything else because I ended the phone call). The search continues.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

Edited September 3, 2020 by LevelWing

[jlunseth]

There is a lot of caveat emptor in aircraft transactions. Next thing to learn, always get a pre-buy, preferably by a good MSC and someone you trust. Don’t settle for seller-paid annual, the seller controls what gets fixed and what doesn’t.  There are major potential issues in Mooneys like any aircraft, including corrosion in the structure. Best of luck.

[BaldEagle]

That must have been frustrating, but it does illustrate the value in being able to “interview” the seller.

[kortopates]

He is a salesman first, and it must be really cheaply priced 231 -  and maybe it is.

But don't be misled by marketing BS like this:

130 SMOH LOWER
220 SMOH TOP
TSIO360GB1
2003

There is no such thing as a legal LOWER "major overhaul"  nor a TOP "major overhaul" - an engine major overhaul is a legal definition with a minimum list of parts that need to be replaced. In reality those could be 2 separate IRAN's with neither of them resetting the clock on time since the last "Major overhaul". Its all in the details. 

Beware, you can buy a cheap plane, but cheap planes often become the most expensive planes to own and operate. If you want to keep your cost down, look for a more loved bird.

[carusoam]

LW,

You couldn’t be more direct... and on target...

It takes effort to sell expensive machinery...

That guy didn’t want to take your money... well, he did, but didn’t want to work that hard... 
 

There are no bad M20Ks, but they got better with every upgrade... and more expensive to match...
 

In the end... how much do you want to spend, to get what is available..?

By the time you slide up the scale... one upgrade at a time... the new Acclaim is only one step higher...

 

It is wicked hard to set your budget, and try to stick with it...

 

For fun, check in with Jimmy, for something similar... and see how sales can actually work... 

I worked with David on two different Mooneys... David worked directly for Jimmy, and has since retired...

A Mooney sales guy... should know more about the plane for sale than you and me, collectively...
 

Then.... a super sales guy knows how to fly them as well...   

Want to see a climb to the FLs, and cruise LOP....  

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Steve Dawson]

Scott McDonald is known for this and selling low quality aircraft. He tried that procedure on me awhile ago on a 252. Take a look for yourself first then get a PPI from someone reputable and independent 

[Mcstealth]

2 hours ago, LevelWing said:

 

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

TED ?

[carusoam]

David,

The Ted Talks are series of experts giving presentations about their expertise...

I don’t remember who ted was.. 
 

But, they can be quite interesting...

Best regards,

-a-

[GeeBee]

Wait until you go boat buying It will make aircraft salesmen seem like Mensa candidates.

 

 

 

[Missile=Awesome]

It’s enough to make a $100k Missile conversion look like a bargain

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

13 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Wait until you go boat buying It will make aircraft salesmen seem like Mensa candidates.

Maybe they are Densa members...

[laytonl]

On 9/3/2020 at 6:23 PM, carusoam said:

David,

The Ted Talks are series of experts giving presentations about their expertise...

I don’t remember who ted was.. 
 

But, they can be quite interesting...

Best regards,

-a-

TED is technology, entertainment, design.  Or is it “enlightened”.  I’m too lazy to look it up.  Lee

[LevelWing]

On 9/3/2020 at 6:12 PM, Steve Dawson said:

Scott McDonald is known for this and selling low quality aircraft. He tried that procedure on me awhile ago on a 252. Take a look for yourself first then get a PPI from someone reputable and independent 

Interesting that I'm not the only one who's had that experience. I agree that a solid PPI is required from someone not associated with the aircraft.

On 9/3/2020 at 6:35 PM, GeeBee said:

Wait until you go boat buying It will make aircraft salesmen seem like Mensa candidates.

 

 

 

Let's hope I never take an interest in boats. I'm told I have enough hobbies in my life already.  

[Geoff]

Suggested solution:  Give Gmax American Aircraft a call and buy your next plane from/through them. 

[mike_elliott]

In fact, Don has Mimi's old 231, if a 231 is where your mission and heart live. If it is a selection of where your budget is and where this particular plane fell, reset and pick the model for your intended missions, then search that within your budget

[WaynePierce]

On 9/3/2020 at 5:23 PM, carusoam said:

David,

The Ted Talks are series of experts giving presentations about their expertise...

I don’t remember who ted was.. 
 

But, they can be quite interesting...

Best regards,

-a-

I don't know who Ted was either but I think his last name started with an X.

[LevelWing]

1 hour ago, Geoff said:

Suggested solution:  Give Gmax American Aircraft a call and buy your next plane from/through them. 

I have been in contact with Jimmy and are reviewing a few of the planes he has. He has been straightforward and answered all of my questions. I'm also looking at other options as well just to see what is out there.

57 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

In fact, Don has Mimi's old 231, if a 231 is where your mission and heart live. If it is a selection of where your budget is and where this particular plane fell, reset and pick the model for your intended missions, then search that within your budget

Don as in Don Maxwell? I'm not familiar with Mimi. In either case, a 231 seems to be the best fit for my mission if I can find one with the right useful load. I'd consider a J with the useful load increase but the 231 fits the longer term mission more so than the J (easier ability to handle the mountains out west).

[Mooneymuscle56m]

I’m sure if it had the wastegate and the intercooler he’d be bragging about those mods.

I have flown a GB 231 and I’ll say this, what a piece of crap, it’s either hot or cold, it was never happy.  Then it blew up on my buddy with his family on board over Ely, NV in December.  He got it on the ground thankful. He hung a factory reman LB with the intercooler and wow what a difference.  Thing is a nice machine now.

 

Aircraft brokers are one step above realtors.  Usually didn’t drive a city bus in a previous career.

Edited September 5, 2020 by Mooneymuscle56m

[GeeBee]

With the factory re-opening,, this tale of woe certainly makes one wonder about the value of a CPO program.

 

 

[Mcstealth]

24 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

With the factory re-opening,, this tale of woe certainly makes one wonder about the value of a CPO program.

 

 

CPO?

Pre owned?

Edited September 6, 2020 by Mcstealth

[Hank]

45 minutes ago, Mcstealth said:

CPO?

Pre owned?

Certified Pre-Owned. The car I bought last summer was a CPO.

[MikeOH]

15 hours ago, Hank said:

Certified Pre-Owned. The car I bought last summer was a CPO.

Hmm, I'm not one to believe a car salesman, but if he tells me it's used, I really don't need him to Certify it

[Hank]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

Hmm, I'm not one to believe a car salesman, but if he tells me it's used, I really don't need him to Certify it

Still under factory warranty, lots of inspections, history, etc. Kind of a general manufacturer-created PPI. Should work with pre-flown aircraft, too, as many people are familiar with the concept from cars.

[carusoam]

If everything follows along ....

That means Marvin K is alive...

Alert the media... or tell Amelia...

She loved Marvin K. Mooney...

Best regards,

-a-

[MikeOH]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

Still under factory warranty, lots of inspections, history, etc. Kind of a general manufacturer-created PPI. Should work with pre-flown aircraft, too, as many people are familiar with the concept from cars.

Hmm, because we always recommend using the seller's A&P to perform the PPI