Touch and Go's not recommended? Why?

[GeeBee]

7 hours ago, tmo said:

Shouldn't we be raising flaps as soon as we reasonably can after touchdown anyway? More grip on wheels and whatnot.

Getting in the habit of raising the flaps before adding power in a touch and go carries over to go arounds which is not a good thing. Usually go arounds are high stress because the pilot has  botched it up to start with, so if they fall back to an ingrained habit pattern, there is nothing but grief to follow. This happened at KHOU with that Cirrus and I personally witnessed a Cherokee turned into a human Panini at Columbia, CA.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/06/cirrus-sr20-n4252g-safe-aviation-llc.html

As a DPE back in the 70's and early 80's I issued a lot of rejections for bad go around procedures and several times where I had to slap the hands away from the flap switch or lever to keep from being killed. I would not bust you for going around from a bad approach, but I would bust you for botching the go around. Usually when I examined the applicants log book, if I saw a lot of touch and goes, I would intentionally put them in a go around and I was usually rewarded with a bad habit.

Power, pitch first....always.

[carusoam]

Summary for EBMF...

1) TnGs are a balance of costs and benefits...

2) the costs are measured in engine hours and GU landings...

3) the benefits are few compared to a full stop...

4) We are not paying for the Hobbs time...

5) GU landings come in several varieties where a manual gear Mooney is not immune...

6) Time pressure causes distractions...

7) Nothing like the time pressure of landing long on a short runway, then scrambling to get the T/O configuration right...

8) Hey, if we were perfect, that would be inhuman...

9) If we were perfect, we wouldn’t need the practice....

10) If you like the juggling of all things required for a successful TnG... enjoy them...

11) Just recognize all the various types of errors including distraction that can occur...

 

12) Often the word distraction gets mis-understood... it is a brain failure mode that allows the busy brain to not recognize something not in the proper position... it isn’t a teenager studying while listening to music and watching a football game at the same time... that’s multi-tasking.... 

 

13) Proof that TnG landings lead to GU landings or running out of runway will be in your hands after the event occurs...

14) There are plenty of goofed up GAs documented around here...  There might even be a mis-step in the pre-flight leading to a crash around here....

15) Practicing the GA is wise....

 I usually do the full stop and taxi back...  if I’m paying attention to costs that closely.... I run out of flying money...

 

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[midlifeflyer]

1 minute ago, GeeBee said:

Getting in the habit of raising the flaps before adding power in a touch and go carries over to go arounds which is not a good thing. Usually go arounds are high stress because the pilot has  botched it up to start with, so if they fall back to an ingrained habit pattern, there is nothing but grief to follow. This happened at KHOU with that Cirrus and I personally witnessed a Cherokee turned into a human Panini at Columbia, CA.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/06/cirrus-sr20-n4252g-safe-aviation-llc.html

As a DPE back in the 70's and early 80's I issued a lot of rejections for bad go around procedures and several times where I had to slap the hands away from the flap switch or lever to keep from being killed. I would not bust you for going around from a bad approach, but I would bust you for botching the go around. Usually when I examined the applicants log book, if I saw a lot of touch and goes, I would intentionally put them in a go around and I was usually rewarded with a bad habit.

Power, pitch first....always.

I agree completely. I see a lot of folks argue that it's basically practice for a go-around, but, as you indicate,  the quasi-emergency go-around is a different animal from the casual land-rollout-reconfigure for the takeoff of your choice which is the essence of touch and go.

[gsxrpilot]

All this talk about emergencies and screwing things up in a high stress situation. The only situation I can think of is if the pilot is so far behind the airplane, that as Tom Tweedale said, "if he crashed, he wouldn't be found in the wreckage."

I've been behind the airplane and hope/train to never be there again.

[Parker_Woodruff]

I never do touch and goes in Mooneys with clients.  Most of the reasoning has to do with the significant trim changes, but also with dialing in the intermediate flap setting.  Add in a pilot who I may have not flown with before and the risk goes up more and more.

[GeeBee]

Sometimes, high stress is not caused by the pilot. Ever been ready to touch down only to have a herd of deer run onto the runway, or an errant aircraft pull onto the runway or taxi across the runway. I've even been forced to go around by an earthquake. You never know, but you fall back on your training at moments like that and you want your training and habit patterns to be second nature.

 

[jaylw314]

18 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Only the first 2 need to be done with any urgency, I wonder if a reason pilots get into trouble is because they trim for a hands off landing which results in a lot of nose up when power is applied.

True, but it's those first 2 that seem to be the ones that kill people... 

I do use a lot of nose up trim, but I do my go-arounds with only my left hand pushing the yoke--it doesn't take two-armed strength if you're mentally prepared for it. 

I hear stories from other pilots about how they've never had to do a surprise go-around--I don't know how that can be.  I've had to do them at least once a year, between deer dashing onto the runway, one NORDO plane taking off in front of me, a bunch of not good approaches, some first landings at unfamiliar airports, and at least one "oh shit, did I remember to put the gear down??"  (I had)...

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

I've even been forced to go around by an earthquake

ooohkay, you got me on that one, though! 

[Ibra]

8 hours ago, GeeBee said:

I've even been forced to go around by an earthquake.

Never heard a landing brief for that one, I am sure they only do it when flying in LA/CA 

[Hank]

10 hours ago, GeeBee said:

I've even been forced to go around by an earthquake.

Why should you always carry more than minimum required fuel reserves? Because you never know . . . .

[Mark605]

I've done touch and goes in the jet before, but the difference between that and the Bonanza, is that there is a PNF that resets the flaps and trim, and says "go" when the airplane is reconfigured, and all the PF has to do is advance the power levers and fly. When I am by myself, I have to do all of that, and not being able to see anything with the yoke in the way just makes it a little too exciting for my tastes. 

[GeeBee]

One, the go around and missed approach is always briefed.

Two, this is how it went down.

Tower: We are have an earthquake, tower is evacuating. Cleared to land at your own risk

Me: Missed approach

It was not KSFO or KLAX, it was Mexico City MMMX while on the Mateo transition.

[Cyril Gibb]

On 8/26/2020 at 7:52 PM, ohdub said:

That must be a US thing, I'm not aware of that being a requirement here in Canada?

Night currency in Canada requires full stops.  And for our US friends, night flying in Canada requires a "night endorsement" which includes 10 hours of instrument dual and night cross countries etc.  PPL Instrument dual can be carried over.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Cyril Gibb

[ohdub]

4 hours ago, Cyril Gibb said:

Night currency in Canada requires full stops.  And for our US friends, night flying in Canada requires a "night endorsement" which includes 10 hours of instrument dual and night cross countries etc.  PPL Instrument dual can be carried over.

Maybe I'm missing something, I don't see anything about the landings being full stops. CAR 401.05 (2) (b) 

... Within the six months preceding the flight

(B) five night take-offs and five night landings, if the flight is conducted wholly or partly by night,

 

[Cyril Gibb]

8 hours ago, ohdub said:

Maybe I'm missing something, I don't see anything about the landings being full stops. CAR 401.05 (2) (b) 

... Within the six months preceding the flight

(B) five night take-offs and five night landings, if the flight is conducted wholly or partly by night,

 

I think you're correct.  My bad.  The assumption that I had been making is based on "flight time", where takeoff/landing were from/to a stop.  If the definition of takeoff/landing was based on "air time", then a series of touch and goes would be ok for currency.  Since there isn't any specific definition for night currency then I'm wrong.

Many of my landings involve a series of touch and goes.  This could save me a lot of time come the fall when I need to get current again.

 

[jlunseth]

Some of you guys land full flaps?  Why on earth would anyone want to do that??

I don’t do touch and goes. For those of you who do, can you please get off the runway sometime in the next hour so the rest of us can use it? I had an Angel Flight not long ago at a nontowered airport where the local university has a flight school, so the pattern can be pretty full and intense. Student comes in on an approach announcing a touch and go, so I line up and wait behind once they have touched down. Then the student and instructor proceed to reconfigure for the next several minutes while several of us are waiting behind, some are in the air on approach. Just do your landing, get off the runway, and get back in line please.

[skykrawler]

59 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

Some of you guys land full flaps?  Why on earth would anyone want to do that??

I don’t do touch and goes. For those of you who do, can you please get off the runway sometime in the next hour so the rest of us can use it? I had an Angel Flight not long ago at a nontowered airport where the local university has a flight school, so the pattern can be pretty full and intense. Student comes in on an approach announcing a touch and go, so I line up and wait behind once they have touched down. Then the student and instructor proceed to reconfigure for the next several minutes while several of us are waiting behind, some are in the air on approach. Just do your landing, get off the runway, and get back in line please.

That's a stop-and-go.

Go-arounds, balked landing and rejected landings are different things.

[jlunseth]

Yes, I know. If you have to do a touch and go, then please touch and gooooo! No waddling on the runway.

[tmo]

1 hour ago, jlunseth said:

Some of you guys land full flaps?  Why on earth would anyone want to do that??

I usually land full flaps. Like the view better. POH says "full flaps" in both "normal" and "max performance", only in x-wind does it say "1/2 flaps". Pretty sure it lets me slow down a bit more than no / half flaps would.

If I had a smooth, paved runway perhaps I'd reconsider, but for now, full flaps it is.

[jlunseth]

If you are on grass, sure, I do the same.

There is a lot of stuff in the POH that is not very smart. Running at peak TIT for example. That's the Best Economy setting in my POH. Ouch!

[larrynimmo]

What I do like about touch and gos is that it allows you to practice the phases of flight very efficiently.  Once you touch down, you are close to rotation speed and it propels you very effectively off the runway.

one piece of advice I give is to use half flaps for both takeoff and landing.  Full flaps isn’t really needed unless you intend to slow down (full stop). If you want to add a significant margin of safety, don’t do it under 4,000 ft runway. (Sea level)

[steingar]

3 hours ago, jlunseth said:

Some of you guys land full flaps?  Why on earth would anyone want to do that??

Why wouldn't you?  You land slower, putting less wear on the gear.  The airplane has landing flaps, I can't imagine why you woudn't use them. 

[Hank]

1 minute ago, steingar said:

Why wouldn't you?  You land slower, putting less wear on the gear.  The airplane has landing flaps, I can't imagine why you woudn't use them. 

Because I follow the advice in my Owners Manual, which happens to match what my primary CFI taught me in the Slowhawk . . . .

Going to Full Flaps as standard procedure just removes a flight control from your toolbox to deal with wind, your current flight path, height above ground, obstacles, speed on final, other planes in the pattern, etc. I generally use Full Flaps only in calm conditions, when I have a hard time descending fast enough for my airspeed.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Hank

[steingar]

@Hank Personally, I think this is really poor advice, sorry.  I get the airplane dirtied up before I ever hit the downwind, I try and get my GUMPS check done as well.  Your job in the landing pattern is watching out for other airplanes and for stuff on the runway, not dithering about with the airframe.  Only reason to run less than full flaps in the book of Steingar is a bad crosswind.  I can see why you guys don't like to use them, the airplane is much easier to land well without flaps.  Higher speeds seems to give greater control authority, at least that was my experience while my flaps were out.  But landings without flaps chew up more runway, something we shouldn't be trying to do.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

@Hank Personally, I think this is really poor advice, sorry.  I get the airplane dirtied up before I ever hit the downwind, I try and get my GUMPS check done as well.  Your job in the landing pattern is watching out for other airplanes and for stuff on the runway, not dithering about with the airframe.  Only reason to run less than full flaps in the book of Steingar is a bad crosswind.  I can see why you guys don't like to use them, the airplane is much easier to land well without flaps.  Higher speeds seems to give greater control authority, at least that was my experience while my flaps were out.  But landings without flaps chew up more runway, something we shouldn't be trying to do.

I land with at least Takeoff flaps (15° vs 33°), and have no trouble operating from an obstructed 3000' field. On a 2000' grass strip, I am weight-limited on departure, so landing isn't an issue either. So I guess I'm comfortable "chewing up" all of that runway with my extra speed.

Full flaps lowers my stall speed from 64 mph to 57 mph; my flaps are almost always somewhere in between, as I have never found the elusive airport where wind and temperature are always the same, to say nothing of my downwind distance from the runway, point where I turn base, glide angle on final, etc. Lots of variations in my plane, so lots of variation in flight controls including Flaps.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Hank