Avionics shop blues

[Marek7]

I'm looking for some ideas from people who have been ripped off by shops. 

Last November 2019,  I dropped my plane off to get some work done on Vancouver Island, Canada. I am from Saskatchewan so it's a long drive but I had family there.   Including the installation of an avionics package that someone sold all in one with 2 Aspens, G530, G330. 

I was not given a quote up front but in May 2020 by email message, at 65 hours  in saying that there would be another 40 of work and it would be done In one week. Their shop rate is $115/hr.

I thought better late than never. I took the time off work a week later. I have been stuck on the island waiting for something that wasn't near done. 

I have received an invoice for work as of 31 May that bills 135 hours.  The owner never discussed this with me. 

It's now mid June with no bill  but I speculate >150 hour range and no plane.  They say maybe next week, if they sort out an issue they're having with trim.   

They want payment up front by wire transfer before release. 

The shop owner is not returning my calls  and dodging any attempt at a meeting.  I've lost alot of sleep and income in the past few weeks. 

My goal is I get my plane back working for a fair price.  I was hoping for an honest discussion with the owner but that doesn't  seem like it will happen. 

My fear is I'm being overcharged significantly, paying a premium for someone who doesn't know what they are doing and will still end up with a avionic lemon. 

Can anyone offer me some advice. 

Marek 

 

Edited June 20, 2020 by Marek7

[toto]

So you supplied the avionics, and the shop was hired to install them?

I've never had any experience with an avionics shop that didn't involve a written estimate up front, but I know that install times can be very unpredictable - many shops use markup on the hardware to absorb labor overruns when they happen. So they may be less inclined to offer a hard up-front quote on a labor-only install. 

[rbridges]

You've got email saying 65 hours plus 40 hours. 135 is well past that. I think they need to absorb some of their overruns. 

[Marek7]

7 minutes ago, rbridges said:

You've got email saying 65 hours plus 40 hours. 135 is well past that. I think they need to absorb some of their overruns. 

Sounds completely fair and what I would say if he wasn't dodging me. 

[Marek7]

13 minutes ago, toto said:

So you supplied the avionics, and the shop was hired to install them?

Yes. As agreed beforehand.  Funny though at the price it is now I could have gone to a different shop, bought their parts and still be under for costs due to the labor overruns. 

[PT20J]

Here is what has worked well for me:

1. Choose a shop with a good reputation and experience with the work you need done. Write out for them exactly what you want done and get a written estimate. Do not start the work until you and the shop agree in writing to the scope and cost.

2. Do not seek out a shop with a significantly lower price than others. They will cut corners in the installation that will cause problems later. Expect to pay a fair price.

3. Make sure that the shop is a dealer for the avionics you are having installed and buy the avionics from them. This will be beneficial if there are any warranty issues. Also, the markup on avionics is part of their profit and if they don't get that, they have to make it up somewhere else.

Edit: A couple of additional ideas:

4. Keep in physical contact with the shop during the work. Most technicians do not want to work with you looking over their shoulder. BUT, I've found that dropping in for a few minutes once a day to see how things are going and to have a friendly chat with the technician can work well. Inevitably, questions arise, and the technician likes getting input (I can do this or I can do that, which would you prefer?). It also gives the technician an opportunity to point out issues he or she may be having (the last shop didn't leave enough extra cable and I had to spend a couple of hours fixing that). At the same time, it gives you an opportunity to make sure everything is going as you expect. Just don't wear out your welcome -- the technician gets paid by the hour!

5. Make sure you get configuration settings and wiring diagrams for any work done. It makes maintenance a lot easier later.

Skip

 

[steingar]

Problem with doing avionics in an old airplane is the same as working in an old house. You never know what’s there until you open things up. I give avionics folks a LOT of latitude because of this. But the advice to go to a shop with a good reputation is spot on. You get what you pay for.

 

[larryb]

7 full months and maybe they did 3 weeks worth of work? Now is the time for daily in person visits.

[Cruiser]

you can sue, but I don't know how that works in Canada. 

You can be quiet, pay the bill and chock it up to lessons learned.

You can threaten the business with bad publicity

You could arrange a completion date with performance penalties for each day over that the plane is not in completely working condition. Determined by a third party. 

One thing for certain, please, please, please have the plane thoroughly checked out to be certain EVERYTHING works before accepting/paying the bill.

[Ross Taylor]

My avionics upgrade last year went over the estimate...but the shop called me to let me know there was a space conflict behind the panel, which they hadn't estimated for, and that they needed to make a harness extension for (and move) one of the radios.  They called me before doing this and sent me a new estimate for my approval.  I know this doesn't help in your case, but (in case someone new reads this) this is how it should work.  I almost expect avionics challenges and changes - that's a tough job and it's not always possible to see all that's happening behind the panel until they dig in.  The overage, when reasonable, isn't an issue as much as the lack of communication and the midpoint billing.  It sounds like somebody has a boat payment due!

[Bob - S50]

In the States, when I've had problems with a business (in your case not responding to attempted contact while holding your plane hostage), I've had pretty good luck by contacting the state attorney general's office and describing the situation.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

Here is what has worked well for me:

1. Choose a shop with a good reputation and experience with the work you need done. Write out for them exactly what you want done and get a written estimate. Do not start the work until you and the shop agree in writing to the scope and cost.

2. Do not seek out a shop with a significantly lower price than others. They will cut corners in the installation that will cause problems later. Expect to pay a fair price.

3. Make sure that the shop is a dealer for the avionics you are having installed and buy the avionics from them. This will be beneficial if there are any warranty issues. Also, the markup on avionics is part of their profit and if they don't get that, they have to make it up somewhere else.

Skip

 

I did all these things and still had trouble.   Went to a higher-priced shop due to reputation and the fact that they were close enough that I could drive there for status and updates, which they welcomed at the time.   One example of the fubars was the $1800 "typical" cost estimated to fix my autopilot by diagnosing which unit had failed and sending it for repair turned into, just-send-all-the-boxes-and-servos-for-overhaul for $12k.  I learned about it when I got the invoice.   There'd been no discussion about it.   That was just one of the many issues that came up when I had my panel done.

Usually you find a good vendor and stick with them, but big avionics jobs are rare for most of us, so we can't just go to our "regular guy" when we go to do a panel refresh.    So, yeah, there's always risk.

 

[PT20J]

32 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I did all these things and still had trouble.   Went to a higher-priced shop due to reputation and the fact that they were close enough that I could drive there for status and updates, which they welcomed at the time.   One example of the fubars was the $1800 "typical" cost estimated to fix my autopilot by diagnosing which unit had failed and sending it for repair turned into, just-send-all-the-boxes-and-servos-for-overhaul for $12k.  I learned about it when I got the invoice.   There'd been no discussion about it.   That was just one of the many issues that came up when I had my panel done.

Usually you find a good vendor and stick with them, but big avionics jobs are rare for most of us, so we can't just go to our "regular guy" when we go to do a panel refresh.    So, yeah, there's always risk.

 

I hear ya. One idea I got from Mike Busch that I really like is to set written boundaries ahead of time (he suggests this for annual inspections, but I use it for all maintenance). In other words, if you find something unexpected or it's going to be more expensive, or take longer, than the estimate, you must contact me for approval before proceeding. I never found a good shop that would refuse such an arrangement -- in fact they seem comforted by it because it avoids any arguments over the invoice.

Skip

[EricJ]

Just now, PT20J said:

I hear ya. One idea I got from Mike Busch that I really like is to set written boundaries ahead of time (he suggests this for annual inspections, but I use it for all maintenance). In other words, if you find something unexpected or it's going to be more expensive, or take longer, than the estimate, you must contact me for approval before proceeding. I never found a good shop that would refuse such an arrangement -- in fact they seem comforted by it because it avoids any arguments over the invoice.

Skip

That was part of the weirdness with this shop:   initially they were calling me to get any little change or update approved.   The discussions were usually good and easy.   Then it just kind of gradually went off the rails from there.    My clock had failed and they said they had a ton of serviceable used ones I could pick from, which turned into them randomly picking a janky used clock and installing it with no discussion (that was so bad I pulled it back out right away as it kept killing the ship's battery, drew 0.25A continuous).   One internal issue was that they fired the guy that had done the quote shortly after my airplane arrived there and I wound up working with somebody else.   They had two facilities and closed the one the work had been done at and I had to take it to the other for warranty work.   So they apparently were in some transition while my job was being done, and that kind of thing is just difficult to assess when trying to select a shop.

 

[FloridaMan]

That sucks, dude. What the f--- were they doing for 190 hours at 115/hr? That's a rate that you pay for professionals who know what they're doing; if they've got someone that doesn't know what they're doing, they pay them less and eat some hours. I think my IA charged me something like 4-8 hours to rearrange my radio stack for me, remove the ADF and LORAN and antennas, and that's with the Rocket's riveted radio cages. 

[PT20J]

One of the problems today is that there is a shortage of good mechanics/technicians. Even good shops with good reputations are victims of the people that they can hire. When I got my GTX345 installed I checked the recommendations on the shop and the technician. Shops would do much better at keeping their good reputations intact if they would have someone inspect the work done, but I find that rare to non-existent. Don Maxwell has a good reputation. I've consulted with him and find him honest and helpful and I would use his shop if it were closer. But still, his mechanic that did the last annual inspection on my airplane for the previous owner left a hose clamp off the vacuum filter, reinstalled the spark plug CHT probe on the #1 cylinder instead of the #3 and "fixed" a broken governor adjustment screw by wrapping it in safety wire (didn't hold), and a few other small things.

Skip

[ArtVandelay]

I would at minimum publish my experience on the internet (MS,
POA). If the owner is unwilling to talk to you then you are limited in options. Here in the states we have small claims court, where no lawyer is necessary as a inexpensive way to recoup losses.

[chan65]

I am now 5plus months into a 2 month installation in Central Indiana ( covid of course the best excuse ) except the my had all the parts and never closed . I have a written estimate , it’s a complete Garmin Package , my first experience was with Muncie Aviation , was they held a 20,000 deposit for 6 months and then said , yeah sorry it would be another 8 months , and probably double the original estimate , so I went to another shop , firm written quote, timeline expectations set, all good and then “ghost” . I know there are good shops out there I just haven’t found one , I’m getting the manufacturer involved . I think if they are going to endorse shops and then force us to buy there , they need to assist us when we are being ignored . I’ve supposed to pick up my plane tomorrow for 5 weeks , I’m 2 weeks from 6 months , and I see the installer is struggling. It’s the worst run business I’ve seen, I didn’t negotiate price , it’s almost a 70 k panel . I just want what I was sold , all certified equipment, no issues with the J model , it’s the avionics business . I suggest going after the manufacture hard, that’s what I’m doing 

Edited June 21, 2020 by chan65

[PTK]

5 minutes ago, chan65 said:

my first experience was with Muncie Aviation , was they held a 20,000 deposit for 6 months and then said , yeah sorry it would be another 8 months , and probably double the original estimate , so I went to another shop

Did you lose the deposit?!

[Yetti]

Show up in his office.   Set up cadence of daily progress reports and check ins

[Marek7]

It seems that there is a trend of predatory avionics work.  

 

 

Things are ongoing with my end.   My best case scenario I think is they have the panel installed, they can't figure out the autopilot and I fly it somewhere else.  

My last email from the shop was saying that that they need to diagnose a trim issue. The electric trim is not working and a trim failure light is on.... I wonder who can figure out that one *sarcasm*. 

 

I wonder if anyone has  legal background and thinks it would be helpful to draft up a document.  Maybe something that we could bring to shops that would better protect us before getting hosed.  

 

Marek 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Marek7

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Marek7 said:

It seems that there is a trend of predatory avionics work.  

 

 

Things are ongoing with my end.   My best case scenario I think is they have the panel installed, they can't figure out the autopilot and I fly it somewhere else.  

My last email from the shop was saying that that they need to diagnose a trim issue. The electric trim is not working and a trim failure light is on.... I wonder who can figure out that one *sarcasm*. 

 

I wonder if anyone has  legal background and thinks it would be helpful to draft up a document.  Maybe something that we could bring to shops that would better protect us before getting hosed.  

 

Marek 

Contact a lawyer near the shop, arrange a meeting with the shop and show up with the lawyer for a discussion.

Clarence

[Mooneymite]

My C's panel is still steam gauges.  From time to time I think about a major up-grade, then I read threads like this and think about how easy/inexpensive it has been to maintain my panel and I give up on the whole idea of "upgrade".

I think selling my plane and buying an already up-graded plane makes way more sense for a couple of different reasons.

I wish I could do the install myself in my own hangar on my own time.

[MikeOH]

WOW!

This thread has made me real glad I bought my plane with the equipment I needed ALREADY installed and WORKING!  Yeah, it's 'old': 430W and STEC-30 with altitude hold, but I don't think there's anything the new fancy stuff would allow me to do that I can't.

I wish I had advice for the OP, but I think once these shops have their hands on your plane, you are screwed.  I don't think showing up with an attorney is going to do anything but make them mad.  I suspect that shops with these kinds of issues are hanging on by a thread, and count on taking new deposit money to pay yesterday's bills; you then have to pay them more to actually work on YOUR plane.  Only when the amount of money is high enough to put you at the front of the line, does your plane get worked on.

Seems like you have to pay their 'ransom' to get your plane back and then try to sue to recover based on the original quote...which if not very clear in writing is going to be extremely difficult.  And, if my suspicions are correct, there are no assets of any real value to go after even if you get a judgement!

What gets me even more after reading these horror stories, is the apparently standard excuse "of when we got in there....". PUUHHLEEEASE, like an experienced shop is surprised when working on a 50 year old airplane that the install isn't the 20 hour plug and play they envisioned when they quoted you???  Come on! Oh, and the "Mooney's are hard to work on.". Well, they kinda knew that upfront me thinks!  Using those excuses is pathetic.

I feel for you guys with your planes hostage at an unscrupulous avionics shop.  Good luck!

[McMooney]

Def thinking bout upgrading it myself now