Main Gear door touched runway

[Jmr324]

Putting this out there so it may help someone. Flew from NJ to NC in my M20E yesterday. Weather was for 10-15mph gusts at destination.  As I was landing (20' above touchdown) I was surprised by a gust of 25+ that hit me and forced the plane down and to the left... wasnt too bad, never touched the runway.. added power, extended a bit down the runway ... was thinking about a go around if I would have felt another gust 20' over the runway but everything felt like it now would be a normal landing. 
As I was getting ready to touch down <5 feet from the runway I was hit again with a 25+ gust that tipped the left wing down right at touchdown. Landed ok (a bit harder that I would have liked) but the left main door touched the runway at touchdown. 
It sounded like I blew the tire when I landed and when I looked, I was shocked to see that the door actually touched the runway.
Plane was inspected by 3 mechanics at the shop in NC and there was nothing else wrong, just the door. - new door coming and will return next week to pick plane up.

Looking back, guess I am beating myself up for just not going around after the first gust when the thought crossed my mind but have been hit with gusts like that on landings and never had an issue.. just the exact moment of the second gust didnt leave any time to do really anything. Probably should have carried a little more speed than normal. A mechanic witnessed it happen and said "I can't believe you didnt crash, Jesus was with you" so I'm sure the view of what happened must have been something.

Point being, if you have thoughts of going around, it's probably the right thought, go around.

(Pic makes gear look bent-it is not)

 

 

https://m.facebook.com/groups/2226961823?view=permalink&id=10157083205321824

Edited March 1, 2020 by Jmr324
Spelling Error

[cbarry]

I’m glad you ended up landing safely!  Any estimate on how close the left wing tip came to kissing the runway?   Because if you didn’t actually touch down with the tire, the angle it would take to touch the gear door would result in the left wingtip being too close for comfort—in spite of the nice dihedral of the wing.   If the plane kind of plopped down with the left wing down, it probably wouldn’t take that much to touch the gear door—given the tire flex as well as the donut compression.  Again, glad you landed ok and thanks for sharing!

[Jmr324]

I personally didn't think the wing was that close to touching, that was why I was surprised when I saw the door touched. Not sure what it looked like from outside the plane though.

[GeeBee]

"Point being, if you have thoughts of going around, it's probably the right thought, go around"

The way I think of it is a go around is an admission of good judgement, not of failure.

 

[M20F-1968]

What was your main tire pressure on the involved side?

John Breda

[cliffy]

I would have a concern with the internal condition of the tire also I'd probably disassemble it and look inside

and put a new tube in just in case.  The sidewalls took a big flexing to do that. 

[carusoam]

Great post, JMR.

Glad you shared it here as well.

Good luck getting it sorted out.

Best regards,

-a-

[Pete M]

Gusts make you climb, not drop. You're getting too slow too high. 

[Jmr324]

Oh really??? .... No... not true...a gust tipped the plane and the wheel to touch the runway when the plane wasnt level.  This was a cross wind 25+  gust , get a tailwind gust and tell me if your statement holds true.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Jmr324

[Hank]

6 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Gusts make you climb, not drop. You're getting too slow too high. 

Gusts from the front make you climb; gusts from behind make you fall; gusts from the side try to tip you while moving you sideways. Quartering tailwind gusts are particularly unfriendly while trying to land . . . . BTDT, but passed my IFR checkride anyway.

[Jeph357]

I'd put it on jacks and check the rigging and pre loads just to make sure nothing got too sideways if it were me. 

[Jmr324]

Yes, they are for sure. 

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, Jmr324 said:

Oh really??? .... No... not true...a gust tipped the plane and the wheel to touch the runway when the plane wasnt level.  This was a cross wind 25+  gust , get a tailwind gust and tell me if your statement holds true.

Gust indeed causes a climbing tendency by causing a momentary increase in airspeed only to be followed by a loss of airspeed after the plane has ballooned upward. The weird wind currents at ground level can be caused by any number of things.  Your incident was likely caused by a change in wind direction and wind speed  which is not uncommon on a blustery day especially if there are structures around the airport funneling and blocking the wind.  Regardless of the cause of the door strike you should know that even a tire blow out on the single gear door Mooneys does not typically result in the door hitting pavement.  I suspect the reason the mechanic was so rattled watching the event unfold is likely due to the angle of bank when the main touched.  The only way to drag a gear door is to hit at a a pretty dramatic bank angle and hit fairly hard.  I bet it looked very scary form the ground.    Our machines were made the same year with the same gear doors and the same paint scheme...mine is just 10 inches longer ...  See the doors in the photo in relationship to the ground.  NFW  the door hit without a pretty extreme bank angle.

 

 

[Pete M]

20 hours ago, Jmr324 said:

Oh really??? .... No... not true...a gust tipped the plane and the wheel to touch the runway when the plane wasnt level.  This was a cross wind 25+  gust , get a tailwind gust and tell me if your statement holds true.

My ststement was meant to apply to the conditions as you described them. You never mentioned a 25 kt tail shear. Striking the gear door indicates a very high rate of decent. You stalled the airplane too high, for what ever reason. If it was soley due to sudden cross wind you would have caught the wing tip. I would encourage you to examine your technique and aero decision making  instead of concentrating on external factors. In conditions like you describe you must carry some extra speed down very close to the runway and use good xwind technique so when the shear hits and you stop flying the drop is minimal. Its not easy to do. Were you flaps or no flaps? No flaps better if it was that bad. If you balloon full power and go around. Conditions like that tend to unnerve people and they just want down now causing them to delay go around. I see airline and mil pilots that cant handle gusty crosswinds in little airplanes all the time. Takes practice. Dont feel bad about it. Go find a good instructor and a windy day. I'm a working cfi in nj at the moment. Let me know if you want to do some training. No charge but you buy lunch:) Will fly for food:)

[Jmr324]

Pete, with all do respect.... did you read the post.... "stalled too high"?? (3 feet from the runway) "High rate of descent"?? "Concentrate on technique vs. Concentrating on external forces"??? "If you balloon full power and go around"??  Where does it say I ballooned?  I wish I did!  .. I simply described exactly what happened in hopes that if someone else gets hit with a hard gust near the runway, this may remind them of what could happen.  You are certainly reading into more than what was written. I never mentioned a tail wind shear because that wasnt what happened. It was a 25+ knot cross wind gust that hit as I was less than 5 feet (probably less than 3')from the ground and the left main touched the runway as the plane was tilted and was pushed sideways. There wasnt a forecast for 25 knot gusts so why would I think I needed more speed and less flaps or that landing would be any different from a normal landing? The wing didnt touch because I did react to the gust and lifted that wing as the gust hit me but the wheel touched. If I did nothing, then you are right, the wing would have surely touched. You mention I should have carried more speed - If you read my post, I acknowledge I should have been carrying extra speed in hindsight due to the gust I encountered or if i knew about the gusts ahead of time but there was no forecast for that high of a gust. NOAA recorded it after the fact. Your statements imply I knew the gusts of 25+ were present at the time I landed. Had I know, of course I would have configured differently or chosen another airport. I have been a pilot over 30 years and I'm am sure I have as many crosswind , gusty wind landings as anyone. There are always things I learn everytime I fly.

Seeing how you completely miscomprehended these events as clearly as you did...I thank you for your offer for some training however I'll pass.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by Jmr324
Correction

[Ibra]

An unexpected +25kts gust or loss of speed near ground in the flare or float at 50ft simply means go-around

25kts gust translates into huge rate of decent (-2000fpm) way beyond what you can "save" with power or low G at 50ft irrespective of wings stalled/non-stalled condition

I think @Jmr324 did well or was lucky saving it given limited damage, but I really see don't see how those gear doors can be damaged without cutting wingtips or pitot tube?

People had all sort of gear collapse and tail/prop/wing strikes even on well executed approach/normal flare until last 2s where they don't recall what happened in those 2s

Mooney main gears are rock solid and strong but the soft metal around that will suffer in hard landing (e.g. prop, wing, tail and gear doors)

Now on having excess of speed, yes it does helps for stable approach and flare in gusty conditions but as everybody know Mooney hates excess of speed on flare and touchdown as much as it hates gusts, and once you are floating in ground effect "gusts story" will be the same irrespective of how good the approach, the least amount of time you spend floating is the better, if you feel huge sink or see unexpected speed loss on floating, the first cure is to freeze the yoke and gun it with a max 1/2 of power, or alternatively just go-around if you feel too light in seat or bounced after hitting on ground on mains, if I hit the ground so hard to get stuck on it with 3 wheels, I will not go-around (but this is a personal choice)

Edited March 3, 2020 by Ibra

[Pete M]

On 3/1/2020 at 7:37 AM, Jmr324 said:

As I waslanding (20' above touchdown) I was surprised by a gust of 25+ that hit me and forced the plane down and to the left..

 

On 3/1/2020 at 7:37 AM, Jmr324 said:

. Landed ok (a bit harder that I would have liked)

 

On 3/1/2020 at 7:37 AM, Jmr324 said:

Weather was for 10-15mph gusts at destination.

 

On 3/1/2020 at 7:37 AM, Jmr324 said:

As I was getting ready to touch down <5 feet from the runway I was hit again with a 25+ gust that tipped the left wing down right at touchdow

10 to 15 gusts...thats not a wind forecast..10G15? what wind direction/rwy hdg? What did automated wx say? How could you have known? Seriously? 5 feet is too high. All xwind landings done right are one wheel first. Dropping out from 5 feet on one wheel...no bueno...

You scared the ground crew. Had they not seen anyone else land that day in similiar conditions? Did anyone else damage an airplane that day? 

I've flown in much worse than you describe...3500 or more landings in light airplanes..never damaged an airplane. Was in 25kt shear last week with a student. 

So you posted to warn us all of the dangers of unforecast winds? Or, maybe some advise about what you could have done differently? You seem like a reasonable guy. I'm assuming the latter.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Pete M

[Jmr324]

3 hours ago, Pete M said:

10 to 15 gusts...thats not a wind forecast..10G15? what wind direction/rwy hdg? What did automated wx say? How could you have known? Seriously? 5 feet is too high. All xwind landings done right are one wheel first. Dropping out from 5 feet on one wheel...no bueno...

You scared the ground crew. Had they not seen anyone else land that day in similiar conditions? Did anyone else damage an airplane that day? 

I've flown in much worse than you describe...3500 or more landings in light airplanes..never damaged an airplane. Was in 25kt shear last week with a student. 

So you posted to warn us all of the dangers of unforecast winds? Or, maybe some advise about what you could have done differently? You seem like a reasonable guy. I'm assuming the latter.

Pete,

I'm not going to continue this conversation with you about this as you clearly are miscomprehending every single thing posted. 

The 10 to 15 gusts I was referring to are the gust component of the wind report at various times enroute to the destination during the 3+ hour flight there. Nothing was higher than 15kt. I'm sure everyone but you understood that.

Explain how I could have know there were gusts of 25+ when they weren't reported until after the fact being you said "seriously?" Please, Enlighten us...

Thank you for telling me landing on one wheel from 5 feet is " no bueno" ... I'm sure no one knew that. 

"Did anyone else damage their plane that day?" Could be the most ridiculous statement I've ever read on this site. Do you think that everytime some has a mishap, there are others that same day that have mishaps at the same airport??? 

To answer your question, no one else was flying from that airport 30 minutes before I got there or 2 hours while I was there. It's a lightly used airport .

I also have landed in worse with no issues. I'm sure most mishaps happen by pilots that have flown in worse conditions than when they had their incident.

And no, I didnt post to get advice on what could be done have been done differently. I already know what I could have done differently.  I posted to let people know how I got caught (yes, we know.. you will NEVER have anything surprise you)

While I appreciate feedback and constructive criticism (the reason I posted)... it would help if you actually read the post before posting.

It appears you are trying to make this post into a "I'm a superior CFI that can handle anything and I'm never surprised by anything" post and unfortunately I also see it as a "I'm a CFI that misunderstands and miscomprehended a very simple post about a very minor incident."

Safe flying. 

Edited March 3, 2020 by Jmr324

[Pete M]

I see a guy that damaged an airplane and is making excuses, redirecting, rationalizing ect. rather than engaging in an honest self evaluation. Didn't want to come out and just say it. Figured some discussion would bring you along. Apparently not. 

Edited March 3, 2020 by Pete M

[Jmr324]

Pete,

For the sake of your potential new students... you should probably not continue this. Honestly your laughable now... "trying to make an excuse"?  I already said I was surprised and should have carried more speed and probably should have gone around.  You chose to turn it into a self promoting "I'm a great CFI from NJ, come take training with me..." post.

Had this been any other day or a Cessna or piper... this doesnt happen because there is no gear door that close to the runway to touch. I have 30+ years of continuous flying and never even scratched a plane before this. If it surprised me, I'm sure others would have been surprised hence the purpose of the post.

Oh.. and as far as "damaging" my plane... I bent a door that could be easily bent back into shape. I'm choosing to replace it.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Jmr324

[Andy95W]

[Pete M]

I don't know man, you're being awfully defensive when people offer suggestions for handling it better. I'm not buying "the sudden gust" caused my main gear to hit so hard " i thought i blew a tire" deal. That takes a high rate of decent. You were too high when you dropped out would be my guess. Possibly from an unnoticed climb when you added power? I also dont buy the "How could i have known" thing. What was the rwy hdg and actual winds? No automated wx there? What about nearbye? Did you check the windsock? Or did you simply rely on the forecast? Your result is definative proof there's more to it than just a gust did it.  But, hey, if you want to go with "a sudden gust did it", nothing to see here,  fine with me. I'll play along. 

[Jmr324]

Pete,

Do you actually read the posts before you write?? sorry, but you're wrong again as with most of your ridiculous statements.  You certainly aren't helping yourself with potential students if you cant comprehend something as simple as this.... 

No, it doesnt take a high rate of descent to have a main wheel hit the runway to sound like a tire blew when the gear door touched the runway as you are being moved sideways. I'm sure you have never heard that sound as I didnt either until Friday. 

I wasnt climbing, I already acknowledged I climbed and was floating back down to the runway and was <3 feet from touching the runway when the plane was rocked and the wheel touched.. why is this so hard for you to comprehend? You have never seen a plane hit with a crosswind gust at touchdown??? Really?? YouTube it.. there are 1,000s of examples. Would probably be good for you to know and understand that as a "CFI".

Still waiting for you to tell us how we should know about a 25+ gust when max winds for up to 3 hours prior were reported 10g15??? Please enlighten all of us and educate us all how we could know about the 25+ gust ..we cant wait for this. (Actually the gust was recorded at 28kts by NOAA)

I'll try to explain this again... since you are hung up on this, the prevailing wind and direction was known.. that wasnt the problem... runway 20.. winds 240 10g15...yes, I saw the wind sock... the reported and forecasted wind WAS KNOWN.. that wasnt the issue.... read that again and as many times necessary if needed as it really seems you have a severe comprehension issue with this....its really not difficult to understand. 

The 25+ kt crosswind gust as the wheels where <3'  off the runway and descending tipped the plane and pushed it to the left.. the plane wasnt descending from height.. read post again... the plane was floating down the runway about to touchdown... the wheel touched as the plane was angled and being moved left a bit. With the angle the plane was at and I'm assuming side load on the tire caused the door to touch.... I cant write that any slower for you..please read that again as many times as necessary... 

No, the wing didnt touch, the gear didnt get damaged nothing happened except the plane touched at an angle that caused the door to touch.

I'm amazed that you being in NJ knows exactly what happened more so than the 3 people in the plane who actually experienced it. You must be one of those "really good CFIs."

You must be a joy to work with as a CFI if you cant even grasp this and want to put your take on it from 500 miles away after not witnessing it.

Keep the comments coming...

Edited March 4, 2020 by Jmr324

[Jmr324]

Pete,

You are doing such a disservice to these types of posts trying to do whatever it is you are trying to do (gain students?? Or maybe lose students,  I dont know) ..with your ridiculous statements.

"Gusts make planes climb"

"How many more planes had an incident at that airport that day" this one was truly brilliant!!

Along with all your other wrong statements.

I made a post about how I got caught and what i did wrong to let people know what happened in hopes that someone may think deeper next time they are faced with it.... 

But along comes "super CFI" who from 500 miles away decided to post that he knows everything that happened and for some reason cant comprehend the most simple sequence of events.

You are the reason when someone screws up, they dont post it for people to learn from it... why?, because "super CFI" knows everything, has all the answers - just come to him for more training... your statements as a CFI are laughable.. I'm actually glad you posted on here, I may have accidentally referred someone to you had I not known better.

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Jmr324

[larrynimmo]

I do believe everything you have said....if you fully collapse the tire even for 1/10 of a second the geometry will allow for the door to impact without the wing touching.