Insurance rates

[Steve B]

I know this has been discussed before but couldn’t find a recent post (2020). Has anyone seen substantial increases recently? (50%+).

 

Particularly frustrating as last year was our first year with the plane so we wrote off a high rate to low experience in type / complex. My partner and I each have 80+ hours in type and I got an IR and he attended a MAPA training course and yet our premium is up nearly 60%.

 

We don’t have any losses or extenuating circumstances. We are confused.

 

 

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[carusoam]

Rates went up last year and the discussion was quite long...

Have you committed to the renewal yet?

If not talk with @Parker_Woodruff he is our MS insurance guy of record...

He gives awesome insight to how the industry works... he also sells the insurance to cover a few MSer’s planes...

I think I saw a couple hundred dollars added to my bill... not 50%.

Best regards,

-a-

[MIm20c]

Put some numbers down so we can be more helpful. 80 hrs in type is not going to really help on a expensive, HP plane...250 maybe...500 probably. Insurance carriers are not giving huge discounts for things like IR etc any more. What is your ( and partners) TT and retract time and current premium?

[Bob_Belville]

@Steve B, my increase at renewal exceeded 50% but given the context, I had enjoyed a very reasonable rate for several years and I will be 77 years old in a few weeks.

My broker sought quotes from all the usual underwriters and tells me "over 75" is a big factor in a "seller's market". FWIW, my 3000 hours in make and model and the numerous safety/training events I took in this year and the recognition as a Wright Brothers Master Pilot, which would normally be taken into account did not help this year. 

Edit: while it was a large %age increase I am grateful to have coverage and the new premium is affordable @ $1914 for $95k hull through Global. (Last year was $1056.) 

Again, at 77 I am grateful to be still flying. I would not be comfortable with the alternative of going with liability only and self insuring a $100k plane.  

[Steve B]

Put some numbers down so we can be more helpful. 80 hrs in type is not going to really help on a expensive, HP plane...250 maybe...500 probably. Insurance carriers are not giving huge discounts for things like IR etc any more. What is your ( and partners) TT and retract time and current premium?

In response to request for numbers.

Plane is an Ovation 3.
Premium yr 1 : Yr 2 = 9.2k : 14.6k
Total Time pilot 1 : pilot 2 = 332 : 240
Retractable p1 : p2 = 156 : 82
Pilot 1 has 59 instrument hours (almost!) and pilot 2 is IR.
Both pilots took a 20 hour transition course with a former factory CFII
Pilot 1 attended a MAPA recurrent training course
Both pilots flew about 80 hours in the plane last year.

I have questions about year 1 to year 2 relative cost and absolute cost.

I get that the first year premium needed to be high. (No complaint there - we had zero experience in a HP expensive plane - but love the plane and sought to be diligent about training and the big step up from 172 / 182 / Arrow experience. ). But having done that why would premiums go UP so much. I get the market is bad - but would have thought that gets offset by no longer having zero experience in the plane.

Absolute cost - rough number our premium is 5% of the value of the plane. So that’s an underwriting profit if fewer than 1 in 20 planes with pilots like us are totaled each year. I mean - I will concede we are likely a worse statistical risk than a 1000 hour pilot (though for any underwriters reading we are super careful!) - but I don’t think 1/20 of us would total the plane each year! Not even remotely close.





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[Steve B]

Age - 50:44.




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[amillet]

Just renewed with USAIG thru Falcon. $200K hull @0.916%. 2000 hours in type.  $1M smooth. Total premium $2400. Age 68

[Gone]

2 hours ago, amillet said:

Just renewed with USAIG thru Falcon. $200K hull @0.916%. 2000 hours in type.  $1M smooth. Total premium $2400. Age 68

My quote is still due in from my broker.  My numbers are $65K hull, 1200 hours in type, and $1M smooth.  Your circumstance gives me hope, Alan.

[Hank]

3 hours ago, Steve B said:

 

In response to request for numbers.

Plane is an Ovation 3.
Premium yr 1 : Yr 2 = 9.2k : 14.6k
Total Time pilot 1 : pilot 2 = 332 : 240
Retractable p1 : p2 = 156 : 82
Pilot 1 has 59 instrument hours (almost!) and pilot 2 is IR.
Both pilots took a 20 hour transition course with a former factory CFII
Pilot 1 attended a MAPA recurrent training course
Both pilots flew about 80 hours in the plane last year.

I have questions about year 1 to year 2 relative cost and absolute cost.

I get that the first year premium needed to be high. (No complaint there - we had zero experience in a HP expensive plane - but love the plane and sought to be diligent about training and the big step up from 172 / 182 / Arrow experience. ). But having done that why would premiums go UP so much. I get the market is bad - but would have thought that gets offset by no longer having zero experience in the plane.

Absolute cost - rough number our premium is 5% of the value of the plane. So that’s an underwriting profit if fewer than 1 in 20 planes with pilots like us are totaled each year. I mean - I will concede we are likely a worse statistical risk than a 1000 hour pilot (though for any underwriters reading we are super careful!) - but I don’t think 1/20 of us would total the plane each year! Not even remotely close.





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You need a requote. Call Falcon and Parker; I just switched from the former to the latter this year, everything is up. But not 50%!

Falcon:  Cliff, 830-257-1000

Airspeed:  Parker, @Parker_Woodruff

Hey, Parker, I don't seem to have your contact info in my phone. Can you please post / PM it for me? Thanks!

[Parker_Woodruff]

26 minutes ago, Hank said:

You need a requote. Call Falcon and Parker; I just switched from the former to the latter this year, everything is up. But not 50%!

Falcon:  Cliff, 830-257-1000

Airspeed:  Parker, @Parker_Woodruff

Hey, Parker, I don't seem to have your contact info in my phone. Can you please post / PM it for me? Thanks!

OP called me.  I hope to find them something better!  That's a surprisingly high number.  My number is 214-295-5055 (office).

[ArtVandelay]

On a related note, Global has dropped the free Savvy breakdown assistance. They only added it about 2 years ago.


Tom

[RobertGary1]

6 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

On a related note, Global has dropped the free Savvy breakdown assistance. They only added it about 2 years ago.


Tom

Probably because may of us never even bothered to sign up for it; even being free. I told them I didn't place any value in it.

-Robert

[LANCECASPER]

On 1/29/2020 at 8:36 AM, Steve B said:

 

In response to request for numbers.

Plane is an Ovation 3.
Premium yr 1 : Yr 2 = 9.2k : 14.6k
Total Time pilot 1 : pilot 2 = 332 : 240
Retractable p1 : p2 = 156 : 82
Pilot 1 has 59 instrument hours (almost!) and pilot 2 is IR.
Both pilots took a 20 hour transition course with a former factory CFII
Pilot 1 attended a MAPA recurrent training course
Both pilots flew about 80 hours in the plane last year.

I have questions about year 1 to year 2 relative cost and absolute cost.

I get that the first year premium needed to be high. (No complaint there - we had zero experience in a HP expensive plane - but love the plane and sought to be diligent about training and the big step up from 172 / 182 / Arrow experience. ). But having done that why would premiums go UP so much. I get the market is bad - but would have thought that gets offset by no longer having zero experience in the plane.

Absolute cost - rough number our premium is 5% of the value of the plane. So that’s an underwriting profit if fewer than 1 in 20 planes with pilots like us are totaled each year. I mean - I will concede we are likely a worse statistical risk than a 1000 hour pilot (though for any underwriters reading we are super careful!) - but I don’t think 1/20 of us would total the plane each year! Not even remotely close.
 

 

Your low total times, Mooney times and retractable times compared to the value of the airplane are getting you I think. Your combined times make you a poster child for a prop strike in a long body Mooney and they are facing double exposure with two similar pilots on the same policy. I think you lucked out your first year.

You both are the exception with the additional training you’ve taken, but experience shows that low time pilots tend to have prop strikes on the long body Mooneys from coming in too fast and porpoising, also from taxiing too fast and the hitting an uneven spot on the taxiway or transition. There just isn’t much suspension with those shock discs especially if they are more than a few years old. Fly more hours without claims, get more experience and keep getting more training and you should eventually see better premiums.

[toto]

8 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

On a related note, Global has dropped the free Savvy breakdown assistance. They only added it about 2 years ago.


Tom

Interesting. I actually thought it was a nice differentiator. I renewed two policies this past year with Global, and stayed with them despite slightly lower quotes from other carriers - in part because of the Savvy benefit. 

[carusoam]

Keep in mind losing the plane isn’t very much when compared to losing the pilot...

Good to see the level of training everyone has picked up along the way...

A simple ground strike for an O cost about 65amu back in 2012...  prop, reman engine, install... kind of an all-in number...

Go fly!

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[tigers2007]

20 hours ago, Hank said:

 

Falcon:  Cliff, 830-257-1000

 

I don't think Cliff is with Falcon anymore.

[kommers]

One of the reasons is that the number of insurance companies willing to deal with general aviation is shrinking. Last year, one of the big players, the Allianz, decided  to not issue any more polices to GA pilots and naturally, these companies who picked up the slack enjoyed a chance to raise the premiums. My increase was over 60% and the only way I found to alleviate the pain is to reduce the coverage from full value to about 80%

[Parker_Woodruff]

9 minutes ago, kommers said:

One of the reasons is that the number of insurance companies willing to deal with general aviation is shrinking. Last year, one of the big players, the Allianz, decided  to not issue any more polices to GA pilots and naturally, these companies who picked up the slack enjoyed a chance to raise the premiums. My increase was over 60% and the only way I found to alleviate the pain is to reduce the coverage from full value to about 80%

They typically don't leave if they are making money.  Three underwriting companies left in about a 15 month timeframe.

[Bob_Belville]

On 1/29/2020 at 9:02 AM, Bob_Belville said:

@Steve B, my increase at renewal exceeded 50% but given the context, I had enjoyed a very reasonable rate for several years and I will be 77 years old in a few weeks.

My broker sought quotes from all the usual underwriters and tells me "over 75" is a big factor in a "seller's market". FWIW, my 3000 hours in make and model and the numerous safety/training events I took in this year and the recognition as a Wright Brothers Master Pilot, which would normally be taken into account did not help this year. 

Edit: while it was a large %age increase I am grateful to have coverage and the new premium is affordable @ $1914 for $95k hull through Global. (Last year was $1056.) 

Again, at 77 I am grateful to be still flying. I would not be comfortable with the alternative of going with liability only and self insuring a $100k plane.  

The market goes up and down. You youngsters might be interested to know that I paid $1262 premium for $25k hull on N943RW in 1982.

That's 38 years ago and 1/4 the hull value of my current '66E.

[KLRDMD]

On 1/28/2020 at 11:07 PM, Steve B said:

I know this has been discussed before but couldn’t find a recent post (2020). Has anyone seen substantial increases recently? (50%+).

My premium went down $137 this year from $1,460 to $1,323. I had zero M&M last year, 125 hours at renewal. This is for a $100k hull Bonanza, not a Mooney. Maybe Mooney rates went up and Bonanza rates went down?

[skydvrboy]

12 hours ago, toto said:

Interesting. I actually thought it was a nice differentiator. I renewed two policies this past year with Global, and stayed with them despite slightly lower quotes from other carriers - in part because of the Savvy benefit. 

I will say I get a LOT more value out of my MS membership and that's only $10.  Absolutely, hands down, the best value I have found yet in aviation!

[Gone]

On 1/29/2020 at 12:50 PM, Ned Gravel said:

My quote is still due in from my broker.  My numbers are $65K hull, 1200 hours in type, and $1M smooth.  Your circumstance gives me hope, Alan.

Quote came in today.  $1,900 US, versus $1,100 US last year.  I can live with that.  

[Jim Peace]

I noticed in my policy that the open pilot section is gone.....only named insured can fly the airplane....

Has anyone else seen this?

 

[Steve B]

We checked AVEMCO and it was significantly cheaper. Obviously facts and circumstances so YMMV but our experience was that it was definitely worth checking with them.


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[Gone]

18 hours ago, Ned Gravel said:

Quote came in today.  $1,900 US, versus $1,100 US last year.  I can live with that.  

Got the emoji's from reactions to this post. ( and )

I also chose the $300 more expensive option with an open pilot clause and some other things my renewal had taken out of their policy.  Still good with it.