LS3 - It's not just for Corvettes

[McMooney]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

What ever happened to delta hawk diesel - it seemed perfect.

Your car doesn't operate at 20,000 ft at 340hp and for that matter it doesn't put out 340hp for more than a few seconds.  And it doesn't expect to sit for a month with ethanol in the fuel.  87 octane would make my tsio520nb explode - literally.

no, but i bet it would do 200 hp at 3000 rpm for literally forever. 

bah, month is easy, car used to sit at the airport for 2 to 3 mos at a time.

yeah, things change, well except for airplane engines 8)

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, McMooney said:

no, but i bet it would do 200 hp at 3000 rpm for literally forever. 

bah, month is easy, car used to sit at the airport for 2 to 3 mos at a time.

yeah, things change, well except for airplane engines 8)

My airplane engine will not run on car gasoline.

if I spend 100k on a new engine of some kind I might be able to run cheap gas.

but I agree 100 percent our airplane engines are archaic technology.

i want the eps engine.

Edited January 17, 2020 by aviatoreb

[jetdriven]

The last LS I heard it was a RV10 up in Conroe Texas. It kept overheating. . Finally on the last flight the ECU kicked into limp mode and it’s really limited timing, fuel, and power, they barely made it back to the airport. Nobody knew that was programmed into there, but then again we don’t know what all of the tables in that ECU do. The LS1 came off and a Lycoming   540 was bolted on. 

 

below  http://www.vansairforce.com/community/archive/index.php?t-38462.html

psowh

07-18-2009, 01:45 PM

Yes, its true, N730WL was damaged Thursday afternoon during a test flight and subsequent emergency landing. Pilot, Bud Warren and I were taking the 10 for a flight around the airport to check out a high operating temperature problem. We took off after a long taxi and climbed normally, however the engine temperature kept climbing even after leveling off. For unknown reasons the engine seemed to quit making power. Bud skillfully banked back toward the runways. Not a good situation. A discussion with Bud today leads me to believe that the high engine temperature may have exceeded an operating parameter in the ECM and the engine reverted to a low power setting. This has yet to be confirmed but obviously needs to be addressed if this is indeed the problem.  

Bud managed to get the airplane back to the airport sacrificing altitude and speed without stalling. Incredible job by Bud to get us back to the runway. However, once over the runway, we were too slow and the plane mushed onto the runway rather hard. We bounced and skidded to a stop on the collapsed main gear. Fortunately, there was no fire and Bud and I were able to get out of the 10 without any injuries, Thank God.  

Unfortunately, there was considerable damage to the main landing gear and the prop was destroyed. The steps kept the bottom of the fuselage off the runway while we skidded, so no noticeable damage to the fuselage skin or tail. The wings didn't hit the ground but there is some minor damage from the gear folding up. I haven't looked at the landing gear mounts yet or the spar. So I don't know at this ten seconds the full extent of the damage.

[Blue on Top]

For those wanting a marine engine converted and certificated, please add the weight of a gear box and the weight of a lake full of water so that we can compare weights apples to apples.  IOW, a radiator is not the same of a lake full of 80 degree water.  One of the problems of cooling a water cooled engine is the drag caused by cooling the water.  Please consider the maximums water temperature coming out of the engine as at 210F.  If the OAT (outside air temperature) is 120F (yes, in certification, that's the regulation), that gives us a temperature delta of 90 degrees.  To get the 210F water temperature down to even 150F would take a very, very large and/or very, very thick radiator, and the air would have to be slowed down a lot to be able to transfer the heat out of the water.  There's a ton of cooling drag slowing the air down that much.

To the poster that mentioned the M10 (sorry for not remembering your name), replacing the diesel with something else is a great idea, but that was not our marching orders.  100% carbon fiber, Garmin and diesel at a cost below $XXX,XXX was.  Ironically, cost of those 3 raw items alone are greater than $XXX,XXX.  

[CharlesHuddleston]

8 hours ago, tmo said:

I wish my TSIO-360 was allowed to drink auto fuel, but it ain't so...  One liter (0.2641729 of a US gallon) of AVGAS at my field costs $2.70; 100 octane unleaded is $1.45.  Yes, I know the octane rating is counted differently for avgas and car gas, and differently in the US and the EU car gas as well.  </rant off>

Ouch! that's $10.22 per gallon! I cry when traveling abroad to the big city FBO's and pay $7 a gallon for 100LL...

[carusoam]

Fun things to know about car based ECUs....  the limp home modes are important to know... most often they are an adjustment to timing and running full rich...  they avoid detonation that comes from over-heating...

They are also the default action whenever a critical sensor fails or gives bad data... (maybe it is over-heating, what should we do... )

 

The LT1 (older version of the LS) has an optical sensor that gets dirty/worn every 50k miles... swap it out before, or get the limp home mode...

Some issues throw the yellow light... with the timing and fuel adjustment...  some issues drop down to the secondary, less sensitive/prone to dirt, sensor, then make the adjustments and not throw a light...

As the driver with a lead foot... you recognize the HP not being there, about 10-20% off... but no way to know exactly what it is while driving it...

The MSer way to know if the Opti-spark system is running full HP or not... it easily spins the tires in second gear on a wet surface... if the tires won’t break free... time to swap out the optispark...   

Double check the odometer... if it says 50k, 100k, 150k, you get to toss this thing a lot... 

 

As for the complexity of water cooling...

We have plenty of Mooney radiator experience, hose experience, and lots of fittings on our Lycomings... we just call them oil coolers... 

On our Continentals... the oil cooler is bolted to the front of the engine block... no hoses and fittings to leak...   Not better than Lycoming by any means... there was a string of oil cooler failures in Os and Cirruses back in the 90s.... oil loss in flight...

+1 for using diesel...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[tmo]

5 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

87 octane would make my tsio520nb explode - literally.

Well, maybe not right away, but yes.  Rumor (and Polish wikipedia) says that N11WB (a Navajo, so TSIO-540) that crashed in Poland in 2014, killing 11 skydivers and the pilot, one survivor, was running on mogas.  Left engine failed, plane crashed 4km (13000 ft) from rwy threshold.  Temperatures were in the high 80's / 90's that day, and most of that summer (we grounded our club planes except for early morning / very late evening departures).  No final report yet (I wonder why, but that's besides the point).

[carusoam]

Two challenges come with mogas...

1) lower evaporation point... causes bubbles on hot days... bubbles don’t work well in the fuel delivery system.... metering and pumping can stop working... very aircraft dependent...

2) pre-ignition is more likely... pre-ignition is also exacerbated by high power and/or errant timing...

 

Some pilots using mogas... will have 100LL in one tank for T/O and climb...   and Mogas in the other for the less stressful cruise segments of the flight...

Mooneys have too many seals and sealants and rubber hoses and polymer diaphragms in the fuel system to want to experiment...
 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[jetdriven]

4 hours ago, tmo said:

Well, maybe not right away, but yes.  Rumor (and Polish wikipedia) says that N11WB (a Navajo, so TSIO-540) that crashed in Poland in 2014, killing 11 skydivers and the pilot, one survivor, was running on mogas.  Left engine failed, plane crashed 4km (13000 ft) from rwy threshold.  Temperatures were in the high 80's / 90's that day, and most of that summer (we grounded our club planes except for early morning / very late evening departures).  No final report yet (I wonder why, but that's besides the point).

The TIO-541J2BD is Perhaps the most detonation-critical engine in GA.  

[aviatoreb]

6 hours ago, tmo said:

Well, maybe not right away, but yes.  Rumor (and Polish wikipedia) says that N11WB (a Navajo, so TSIO-540) that crashed in Poland in 2014, killing 11 skydivers and the pilot, one survivor, was running on mogas.  Left engine failed, plane crashed 4km (13000 ft) from rwy threshold.  Temperatures were in the high 80's / 90's that day, and most of that summer (we grounded our club planes except for early morning / very late evening departures).  No final report yet (I wonder why, but that's besides the point).

I am not describing a chronic problem of a slowly deteriorating engine if using cheap fuel. I am describing an acute and fast problem.  The wrong fuel can cause the engine to cease.  If it does kill it - it can happen in as little as 60 seconds if a runaway detonation event occurs.  Low octane fuel can do such a thing to an airplane engine that is designed for and needs high octane fuel.  Detonation margins decrease as the manifold pressure increases while at high altitude, so turbo charged high fliers.  Putting mogas (or even worse actual car fuel) into your airplane engine is a recipe for causing a catastrophic failure, in the style where it actually ceases and stops cold (hot) - depending on which engine model.

Edited January 17, 2020 by aviatoreb

[McMooney]

Maybe an LT4 would be better to start,  bit more expensive but the dyno is crazy.

no need for a reduction unit, actually you might have too much hp at prop speeds

[steingar]

18 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Only if you don't mind detonation.

And of course actual car gas with ethanol instead of mogas, will also do a number on even those aviation engines that have a mogas stc.

There are tons and tons of aircraft and engines that will happily burn mogas all day with no detonation.  Odds are the Mooneys sporting variants of the Lycoming 0360 are among them, despite the lack of an STC.  Not all airplanes to be certain, but lots.  Moreover, I think the US is alone in polluting gasoline with ethanol.  I think in other countries they're sufficiently intelligent to drink the stuff.  And its other countries we're talking about.

All kinds of airplanes running around with Continentals and Lycosaurs can burn Mogas with no ill effects, and yes Mogas is everywhere.  If you're worried about quality burn Super.  Or stay inside the box and try and shoehorn a diesel engine into an airplane where it doesn't belong.  Like I said, dumb, and it seems to be catching.  Macgyver a solution when there's an extant one sitting right in front of you.  I can't understand how it is that more people don't see this.  I'm not that smart and it stares me right in the face.

[aviatoreb]

8 hours ago, steingar said:

There are tons and tons of aircraft and engines that will happily burn mogas all day with no detonation.  Odds are the Mooneys sporting variants of the Lycoming 0360 are among them, despite the lack of an STC.  Not all airplanes to be certain, but lots.  Moreover, I think the US is alone in polluting gasoline with ethanol.  I think in other countries they're sufficiently intelligent to drink the stuff.  And its other countries we're talking about.

All kinds of airplanes running around with Continentals and Lycosaurs can burn Mogas with no ill effects, and yes Mogas is everywhere.  If you're worried about quality burn Super.  Or stay inside the box and try and shoehorn a diesel engine into an airplane where it doesn't belong.  Like I said, dumb, and it seems to be catching.  Macgyver a solution when there's an extant one sitting right in front of you.  I can't understand how it is that more people don't see this.  I'm not that smart and it stares me right in the face.

I agree - it is true - there are many STC's for mogas for these aviation engines, and many not covered by STC's that in principle could be.  But I was adding to this thread the caveat so that someone who might not know the difference, that no that not all aviations can burn mogas in case someone might be wanting to go renegade and burn the stuff without an stc.   The high octane 100LL (with the lead for the high octane) is there for a good reason, and it is for the strung out turbo engines like mine.  While this might not be the larger fraction of the engine fleet, it turns out to be a large fraction of the fuel burned since often the turbos - mostly in larger twin work horse airplanes, do burn a large fraction of the fuel based on the higher fuel flow, but also the fact that those work horse airplanes (mail carriers, corporate and also passenger carrier businesses) end up putting on a lot of hours.  (E.g. Cape air around here runs the Cessna 402 and they have a lot of TSIO520VB engines in those, and they get 2600 hours on those engines in about 3 years time making many flights every day).  Also I wanted to point out that mogas is not the same stuff as auto fuel from the corner car gas station.

So anyway, take it not that I was trying to contradict you but putting a warning out to any stray people who might otherwise get an impression that one could run mogas in any of our aviation engines.  In many of our engines, mogas as well as car gas WILL cause abrupt and sudden engine failures.

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by aviatoreb

[tmo]

5 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Also I wanted to point out that mogas is not the same stuff as auto fuel from the corner car gas station.

What is the difference?

[kmyfm20s]

6 minutes ago, tmo said:

What is the difference?

Ethanol

[Ron McBride]

3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

The TIO-541J2BD is Perhaps the most detonation-critical engine in GA.  

And what plane are these engines used

 

[carusoam]

E-turbo company of interest...

https://www.garrettmotion.com

originally garret was part of the BK, Allied signal, Honeywell group of companies...

Recently spun off as part of a corporate paring down...

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

53 minutes ago, tmo said:

What is the difference?

That is why I pointed it out - it is not the same stuff.  A mogas STC gives the right to burn mogas which is not the same stuff as car gas from any corner gas station.

For one, ethanol content.

[aviatoreb]

43 minutes ago, Ron McBride said:

And what plane are these engines used

 

The TIO-541J2BD may be especially detonation critical as Byron pointed out, but I would assert that ANY of our turbo engines are risky business if anyone is considering going renegade with mogas or even worse with car gas. 

[tmo]

OK, so it looks like I have a problem with definitions.  I always understood "mogas" to be "autoMOtiveGAS" ie. the stuff you buy at the pump, and that you can put in your airplane under certain conditions, one of them being lack of ethanol.  This is certainly true when you say "mogas" to a Rotax owner, as the Rotax engines are approved for up to 10% ethanol content (E10).  E10 is the "lowest common denominator" available at the corner gas station pretty much anywhere except for places like Brazil.

Anyway, getting back to the subject at hand, if the engine is designed to run on E10, which we know can be done, then no problem.  I'm pretty sure the LS3 or whatever is.

As a tidbit - Lycoming SI 1070 allows the use of automotive fuels in many Lycoming engines, including some IO540 variants.  While they don't use the word "mogas" they do say "pump gas".  They also allow up to 1% of "oxygenates" which I believe includes ethanol.

Enough of the thread drift, apologies.

[Hank]

12 hours ago, tmo said:

Temperatures were in the high 80's / 90's that day, and most of that summer (we grounded our club planes except for early morning / very late evening departures).

Your club planes were grounded for temps around 90ºF / 32ºC??? Was something else contributing to the grounding? I fly in those conditions (and warmer!) for 4-5 months every year. It's always uncomfortable, so I use nature's air conditioning. Took off one afternoon, temperature was 96º [35½C], but it was cool and comfortable 59º [15C] at 9500 msl. Descending through 5000, though, it started to get warm and humid again . . . . And I did have to land, only 5½ hours endurance with standard fuel tanks . . . .

[Yetti]

It's all about where the engine makes it torque on the power band and PRUs.   Diesels make their torque in the RPM range that propellers need to spin.   You would do better to create an update of the radial diesel engine for airplanes.   I think with modern machining tolerance you could over come the horrendous stories about flying behind the Packard Engine.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packard_DR-980

[tmo]

You fly XC and you take care of your plane because it is your plane.  Our club planes are mostly (read: 85% of the hours, and 100% for some of them) used as primary trainers, beating circuits or flying "XC" at 2000 AGL.  Plus the instructors are more interested in flying (hour building) than if the engine makes it to TBO - they aren't paying for the OH.  This year we had early OHs of three O235's in our C152's this year, I kid you not, one of them was a sub-800h TSO engine.  A really bad year in terms of TBO.

[Yetti]

Oh and there was a guy in Conroe Texas that had the Corvette engine in the airplane thing figured out.

[Austintatious]

Well, perhaps I misunderstand, but I though liquid cooling was less drag than air cooling and possibly more effective precisely because you can Make a MASSIVE internal radiator that is fed with a well designed scoop.

Someone also said there there would only be a 90degree delta... MY CHT's run at 350-380 degrees F...  400 Max...  With a pressurized cooling system you can have super heated water and a quite high Delta T at the radiator.  If the coolant heading to the heat exchange was 400 degrees, that would be a 300 degree delta even on a 100 degree day.  Yes I know, now you have a potential bomb should that system depressurize!

So if you limit the water temp to the exchanger was 200 degrees you still have a 100 degree delta.   Im just saying that if they can put a sufficiently sized radiator into the front of a 700 HP corvette, it seems to me it should be possible for an aircraft.