To upgrade or to spend...

[chriscalandro]

I’m at a point with my airplane where I’m about to cross the threshold of having more into it than it’s worth. It’s a desirable 67C that’s a well sorted VFR platform with mostly new, modern engine accessories and about 700ish SMOH. 
 

it’s on it’s original non-leaking tank sealant with a patch here and there. 
 

It badly needs paint, but as it’s strictly cosmetic, I can’t see my money going for that. 
 

So, I can spend the 20k on gps and have an ifr platform, or sell it, and for about the same money get into a J, or step up and get something faster. Both those options end up with an airplane I don’t know as well as this one, or what to expect from coming maintenance. 
 

I’m leaning on making this a very nice C, but let’s see what’s out there. 
 

Anyone out there looking for an ugly well sorted out VFR 67C? (Stratus esg to avoid the inevitable ADSB question)

Anyone looking to get rid of a nice J, K, or even possibly an M?

 

lets compare the scales

[Oldguy]

What are you looking to do with your updated C/new-to-you J, K, M?

The old "mission" question...

And don't worry - very few of us have less or the same invested in their plane than it is worth. But we have a heck of a lot of enjoyment out of them!

[chriscalandro]

I’m a weekend warrior. I have extended weekends off and like to do cross country trips. 
 

The move to another model represents longer legs from faster speeds and a usable back seat I would probably never use. 
 

I’m perfectly satisfied with the C, but for the same money, someone can get a sorted out, fast, simple, time builder, and I’ll move up to something a little faster, preferably with IFR capability. 

[Niko182]

In my opinion, jumping from a C to a J just isn't worthwhile. if you have a faster C, you might get a performance gain of 2 to 5 knots. You're not gaining much. you might even lose some useful load. Do you fly with more than 2 people? a c with speed mods will outperform a J. @gsxrpilot had one of the faster C's that would cruise at 157 knots. at that point you have practically the cheapest certified single to own on a $ per mile cost. now a jump from a C to a R, S, M, or TN is a different story. expect a 30knots increase at least.

[Ragsf15e]

You can likely get an ifd440 and some type of simple glass (G5?) for less than $20k to make it a really nice ifr platform without significant changes.  

Going 170kts vs 140kts only cuts your trip down by ~35 minutes on a 500 mile trip, so you don’t really realize a huge difference.  Although you’re talking about caring for 6 cylinders and possibly a turbo and O2 system which your checkbook will definitely notice.

[rbridges]

I went through this recently. I talked with my wife and decided this is the plane for our mission. Two people and luggage. Paid off plane with 150 knot cruise and ifr capability. I'd love to hit 175 or 200 in cruise but the cost differential isn't worth it to me. So, more $$$ went into the panel last year. I'm well past the point of recouping any investment, but it's my plane until I can't fly it. 

[LANCECASPER]

On 12/23/2019 at 3:14 PM, chriscalandro said:

I’m at a point with my airplane where I’m about to cross the threshold of having more into it than it’s worth.

Congratulations, welcome to the club. 

 

(Most owners cross that threshold the first dollar they put into the airplane after purchase, since "what it's worth" (true value, not "book value") is determined by what a Seller will sell it for and what a Buyer will pay.)

[Marauder]

IMHO stepping up to anything less than an Ovation or Bravo, isn’t worth the jump. My F cruises in the same range as older Js and quite honestly, many, many Js haven’t been upgraded either.


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[bradp]

You know your C better than anyone at this point.  How many years did it take you to know it inside and out- there is some value to that familiarity.  Both financially and in terms of piece of mind.  

[chriscalandro]

Thinking more, I think unless I can get into a Rocket or a Bravo I’ll keep this. 

it’s a great airplane. I’ll just rattle can the worn down spots again and keep going. I couldn’t care less what the outside looks like, the inside is in quite good shape. I agree about the J, I wouldn’t want to lose the reliability of the JBar for such a modest increase. 
 

thanks for the sanity check. There’s something to say about starting with good bones and creating the machine you want. And that’s what I shall do. 

[JimB]

4 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

I’m a weekend warrior. I have extended weekends off and like to do cross country trips. 
 

The move to another model represents longer legs from faster speeds and a usable back seat I would probably never use. 
 

I’m perfectly satisfied with the C, but for the same money, someone can get a sorted out, fast, simple, time builder, and I’ll move up to something a little faster, preferably with IFR capability. 

I'm sort of new to aircraft ownership, but would stick with what you have and make it your own. I couldn't tell from your posts if you have your instrument rating but I would guess so since that seems high on your priorities. It wouldn't take that much it a nice IFR aircraft. If all your needing is GPS look at the Garmin GPS 175

[Marauder]

Thinking more, I think unless I can get into a Rocket or a Bravo I’ll keep this. 
it’s a great airplane. I’ll just rattle can the worn down spots again and keep going. I couldn’t care less what the outside looks like, the inside is in quite good shape. I agree about the J, I wouldn’t want to lose the reliability of the JBar for such a modest increase. 
 
thanks for the sanity check. There’s something to say about starting with good bones and creating the machine you want. And that’s what I shall do. 

The real sanity check is when you start having the urge to begin writing 5 digit checks...


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[chriscalandro]

26 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

The real sanity check is when you start having the urge to begin writing 5 digit checks...


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See original post!

[daytonabch04]

Go with the Bravo..it’s a great airplane! 

[MIm20c]

Now that you’re planning on keeping the C post up a picture of the panel so we can all help you write the 5 digit checks.

 

[carusoam]

this is the most fun question...

The OP has plenty of Mooney Ownership experience to judge what the next step can be...
 

How far out in the future can you see...?

If you have tiny kids in the back of the C... they expand in volume..

If you don’t / won’t have kids... the C will fit your mission for quite some time... keep the C...

If you like fuel injection, there is an STC for the IO360...

By this time you are talking forever-plane...

5 digit checks are easy to write... same effort as a three digit check... 

Electronic payments are a breeze...

putting something in the bank to cover the mongo-checks is often a sticking point...

Doing the math in AMUs make it seem a bit easier...

 

Are you committed to owning a plane for the long haul?

Are you committed to spending more over the long haul...?

 

What does your finance administrator think about spending dough on a plane...

 

Go ask Dev what he thinks... He has stayed with the C for a while... it keeps getting better...

MS has a Swiss M20C around here as well.... very powerful panel...

 

 

The best investments are in yourself... training, practice, experience... gym membership, good health...

 

I went from VFR M20C to IFR M20R... it takes a commitment...

A simple prop strike Can be the cost of an M20C...

OH of a TC’d engine... could send a kid to college for a few years... get an engineering degree if they select their school wisely...

 

How committed are you?

Go forever-plane..!

Best regards,

-a-

 

[larryb]

I was perfectly happy with my J for 5 years. But then I had the itch for a more capable plane, so I sold it and bought an Encore. Much more capable but much more capital cost. Operating costs are not much different however. And we all know that over the long haul operating expenses dominate the equation. This is a good time to think long hard about what you want in a plane.

[MIm20c]

I figure the sunk cost of upgrading to bravo will be around 20k.  Increase of insurance premium the first year, transition training, pre buy, and catch up maintenance will easily eclipse that number. After that figure double the fuel burn and 1.5 times the maintenance cost will put you pretty close. The higher value of the plane will be easier to justify additional avionics upgrades so the 20k will still be spent...

Do I still want to trade in the C for an M? YEP! 
 

 

[LANCECASPER]

The M is very flexible in terms of power settings.

First, you are feeding two more cylinders of 90 cubic inches each (360 vs. 540) and if you want to go the same speed as a C you can pull back the power and fuel flow,  and it will be a couple more gallons an hour to fly a larger, newer, more comfortable airframe. If you want to go a little faster or a lot faster you can, just add fuel. If you want to go higher the turbo-charging is a huge advantage - getting to the teens quickly is nice.  Flying in the teens is usually smooth and relatively traffic-free. If you have any issues you have a lot of options for airports when you have 16000 feet to lose.

The M is not as efficient as a C or a J or especially a K, but in the grand scheme, fuel costs during the year vs. miles flown, since the M covers a lot of ground in a hurry, won't be 100% more by any means - probably more like 50 - 60% more. If your time is worth something you have to consider that as well.

I still think the M is the best all around long body. It has a turbo charger and intercooler unlike the Ovation, so it gives you a lot of options. But it doesn't have the added expense and maintenance of two of them like the Acclaim and flies 90-95% the speed of an Acclaim for less than half the cost of an Acclaim.

[INA201]

Maybe a side story but my decision was to find something more capable, UL, faster, and maintaining similar efficiency to the Piper Archer I was in.  The step up to the J I decided on or the C that you are in was quite the jump. Now that I’m in the J I haven’t looked back for a moment. Going from a known C to an unknown J might be a small step but possibly a more problematic one and expensive for the ROI involved. 

[gsxrpilot]

I used to fly a pretty nice, well equipped, and fast, M20C. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the C. We flew it from Austin to both coasts, across the Rockies, in and out of high DA airports, and pretty much anywhere we wanted to go. But the 52 gal tank along with 150 knot speed, limited the range a bit.  And there was certainly more flight planning involved when flying around the big mountains in the west. 

I figured that I could get more speed and range, eliminate the altitude limitations, and have a more modern cockpit by upgrading airplanes. I looked at J's, but it wasn't enough an upgrade for the money and still had some of the altitude limitations. I also looked at Bravos, but the running costs were significantly more than the M20C. So I settled on the 252 which has given me the upgrade I wanted, but without really any increase in operation costs.

As I've said a few times before, I'm just not concerned about the purchase cost. But I am concerned about the operational costs. And the operational cost of running a 252 hasn't been any more than running the M20C. And fuel costs have been a bit less with the 252 then the M20C. Add the real possibility that the 252 has better resale value, and I think financially, I'm better off  with the 252 than the C.

[PJClark]

FWIW I love my Rocket..it's an '86 252.

I just got back home from an 80-miles-each-way trip to drop my son's girlfriend off near Columbus OH for Christmas. At 65% power, 30" Hg, 2200 rpm, LOP at 13.4 gph, 6500 MLS, 168 KTAS.  Not quite as efficient as a J but...

15 years ago I owned a '78 J.  Good airplane, had most of the available speed mods on it.  It would do 162 KTAS at 75% power on about 11.5 gph to keep CHTs cool.  But it started to slow down above 9000 MSL.  I think my Rocket with the same power settings as above will do at least 185 KTAS at 12,000 MSL and keep going faster the higher I take it, on same loafing power setting and same ff.

I have a 920# UL.  There are 2 231 conversions for sale right now that have 1040# and 1133# respectively. Dont believe the horror stories about Rocket UL! It's not possible those airplanes are 110# and 210# lighter than mine...one of our empty weights is wrong, probably mine. But the Rocket will yank theirs off the runway at 1650 fpm just like mine...dont worry about UL in a Rocket (I won't load over gross...but gross doesn't  worry me)

Back to your original question: "upgrade or spend?"  I discovered I could buy this really clean Rocket with 200 hours on a Victor Black premium overhaul, strip to bare metal and repaint, have new leather interior by aero comfort, and re-do all the avionics with G3X touch and all the other stuff and it would cost me less than a G1 SR22 that would still have had it's old avionics in it...no SV, no WAAS,  no ADSB out.  You can do some cool stuff with great raw material.

If you're really hankering for upgrade...thing is you can probably do that AND spend by financing the upgrades as part of the purchase.

Second choice: Bravo!

 

 

[Bravoman]

22 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

The M is very flexible in terms of power settings.

First, you are feeding two more cylinders of 90 cubic inches each (360 vs. 540) and if you want to go the same speed as a C you can pull back the power and fuel flow,  and it will be a couple more gallons an hour to fly a larger, newer, more comfortable airframe. If you want to go a little faster or a lot faster you can, just add fuel. If you want to go higher the turbo-charging is a huge advantage - getting to the teens quickly is nice.  Flying in the teens is usually smooth and relatively traffic-free. If you have any issues you have a lot of options for airports when you have 16000 feet to lose.

The M is not as efficient as a C or a J or especially a K, but in the grand scheme, fuel costs during the year vs. miles flown, since the M covers a lot of ground in a hurry, won't be 100% more by any means - probably more like 50 - 60% more. If your time is worth something you have to consider that as well.

I still think the M is the best all around long body. It has a turbo charger and intercooler unlike the Ovation, so it gives you a lot of options. But it doesn't have the added expense and maintenance of two of them like the Acclaim and flies 90-95% the speed of an Acclaim for less than half the cost of an Acclaim.

There is no doubt in my mind that I would never buy another piston plane if it wasn’t turbocharged. I didn’t appreciate it until I had the Bravo. It provides a nice range of options for safety and comfort that you don’t have without a turbo. I have a non turbo Saratoga too so I have a real time comparison.

[Gagarin]

I went from a 1966 M20C to a 1982 M20J. The most significant difference I found was the cabin comforts on the M20J and bigger instrument panel. The cabin comforts are bigger baggage compartment, reclinable back seats, more back seats leg room. The instrument panel has a better layout and more room for avionics. The engine is not susceptible to carburetor icing and it has more power. The M20Js have alternators that keep the battery charged during taxing at night with incandescent landing light on. I prefer 4 cylinder vs 6 for reliability an lower maintenance cost. The M20J has longer range (12 gallons extra)  which make trips from KFXE to TJMZ nonstop to avoid US Customs.

Edited December 25, 2019 by Gagarin

[DXB]

19 hours ago, bradp said:

You know your C better than anyone at this point.  How many years did it take you to know it inside and out- there is some value to that familiarity.  Both financially and in terms of piece of mind.  

This is exactly why I've kept my C - my fear and OCD have kept me from venturing into a new aircraft - I just keep making this one better so I can eventually kinda run with the stock Js.