Factory Closed Down?

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard 205S.

1) The President is Addressing the country regarding Missiles launched from Iran...

2) The Mooney factory seems to be short on finances and has closed again...

3) From past history... Cash is king.

4) If your parts are on the shelf, and a guy named Stacey can access them. Things are looking good for your project.

5) Stacey has history of keeping the lights on in tough times...  the skeleton crew required about a dozen people.

6) That’s the good news...

7) For shared experience of people in the same boat.... there is a thread or two where other people are also seeking to add co-pilot brakes.  Expect used parts may be the solution... more good news.

8) Lasar is always good about knowing where and when parts can be delivered.

9) Oddly enough, the news didn’t disclose financial things like Chapter 11, or other worse financial hard times...

10) So it appears Mooney is still in control of themselves...

Fortunately, Co-pilot brakes aren’t required for flight...  

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Alan Fox]

15 hours ago, chinoguym20 said:

You have no idea what went on within those walls, so I suggest you listen, rather than talk. You obviously think you know, but don’t. Mooney is dead, the spares business is not sustainable.  Let’s all move on. 

Coming from someone with no name , and 11 posts , I will take your info for what its worth , If you took the time to read ANY of my former posts , I have maintained that this company can not continue Making 50 planes a year , or even a hundred , and stay in business , the numbers don't work , The only way to stay in business , is to contract out manufacturing...But since you have stated the obvious , I dub you "Captain Obvious"     it fits you..

[cliffy]

2 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

Someone mentioned India here. Mahindra still makes/sells Willy’s Jeeps in India (under permanent license from Jeep) and recently started selling them in the US as “off road vehicles” again under the Roxor name. Last I knew, Fiat Chrysler is suing them for selling Jeeps in the US without their permission but I doubt that got any traction. There is serious irony here too as Mahindra built a brand new assembly plant in Auburn Hills, MI to re-assemble the Roxors that are made in India, dissassembled, and containerized (Auburn Hills is Chrysler’s HQ city).
With the cheap cost of manufacturing, they could make all metal Mooney’s again at a fraction of the cost and zip the final fuselage halves and wings to the US. I really wonder if they could hit an economy of scale with the low volume. Mahindra can do it because it doesn’t cost them much to make the Roxors. Heck its only $14-16k for a brand new turbo diesel Willy’s Jeep versus $19-22k for a comparable side-by-side UTV.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They can only make them (Roxors) cheap because they are making 10s of thousands at a time. Ain't gonna be cheap to do airplanes even at the production rate of Cirrus. Less units- cost per unit goes up exponentially. 

Secondly they use robots for mass production. Can't be done on even 500 units per year. 

Sorry but it can't be done cheaply (build airplanes that is) The $200K new airplane is a thing of the distant past just like the dinosaur. 

If rehabbing old Js was a good business someone would be doing it right now. You've still got a 25-30 year old airframe you're trying to pawn off at new prices. It just doesn't  pencil out. Used to be able to rehab an airplane and make a profit, but no more. 

Think about it. Your best bet is to find an airframe that someone else has sunk twice what its worth into and buy it for half price. He did the rehab, you reap the loss on equity because he over built for the neighborhood. Just like buying houses. The same would factor into rehabbing old Js. The profit just isn't there AND you have a very limited supply of clean undamaged airframes out there (a diminishing quantity to boot as we kill a lot of airframes very year). No one would buy, for top dollar, (no matter who did the rehab) a rehab, on a damaged but repaired airframe.

Now if the factory would sell the intellectual property for some hard to get items, then someone like Univair might be able to produce what we need just like they do for various other "orphaned" airplanes. That might be the saving grace for our vintage fleet. 

As a final note- None of us know what is happening at the factory. No FINAL announcements have been made. No Chap 11 filings have been made. So in essence, all this being said here is just uninformed blather. 

It may not look good but NO ONE knows positively what will happen. 

[Mooney217RN]

Truly a sad testament in an economy like we're experiencing, probably the best economic environment in post-war history.

This goes right back to what I have consistently said - Mooney's marketing is for all intensive purposes absent.  Further, Mooney cannot continue on without producing an entry level product to introduce people to the product line.  You cannot sell the top of the line product with no marketing, and Mooney has been guilty of this for years.

As an owner of two Mooney aircraft, I am disappointed, but not surprised.  I know a few people who were working at the factory, it's a tough day for them.

[RobertGary1]

Just now, Mooney217RN said:

Further, Mooney cannot continue on without producing an entry level product to introduce people to the product line.  You cannot sell the top of the line product with no marketing, and Mooney has been guilty of this for years.

 

That is precisely what they were doing with the M10T.

 

-Robert

[tmo]

4 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

With the cheap cost of manufacturing, they could make all metal Mooney’s again at a fraction of the cost and zip the final fuselage halves and wings to the US.

They probably could scare up a bunch of mothballed Spitfires ;-)

[WilliamR]

In order for a bankruptcy filing, there needs to be debt.  I would bet there is an immaterial amount or no debt here including minimal vendor payables.   I think Mooney publicly stated they cleared the decks 10 years ago because the debt scared investors off.  I believe that's how they were able to go into "hibernation" rather than BK last time.

Staying out of BK really provides lots of options for everyone. 

Speaking from experience, I've done a few workouts in my life including one this past summer. 

When was the company last cash flow positive in any operating capacity; parts only, new aircraft, etc.?  How many presidents ago was that?

But, cliffy is right, there are only a handful of people that know the real financial picture of Mooney and how much was infused in Mooney.  Assuredly, no non-executive employees or former employees know.  I'll take a guess though.....lots and lots was infused through equity contribs.

I feel bad for new aircraft owners.  It seems as though they had direct counter party risk to Mooney for warranty claims.  That would suck hard.  Saw it with first gen Eclipse owners and depositors.

William

[RobertGary1]

3 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

 

Maunfacture in a cheaper country, same quality and fly them across to USA  no need for sub assembly etc  cut out the expensive workforce and Insurance liability  

Andrew

 

Custom's will stop them just like they do the Chinese knock off cars. The US respects intellectual property laws.

-Robert

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Hyett6420 said:

Trouble is not all countries have signed or do copyright.  China certainly didnt. Not sure India does either.  Spain never did.  So copyright is not worth the paper it is written on in those countries, they don't care. 

Look at all the “Land Rovers” that china is producing that look just like “real” ones but under a different brand.  They will produce F35s next.

Maunfacture in a cheaper country, same quality and fly them across to USA  no need for sub assembly etc  cut out the expensive workforce and Insurance liability  

Andrew

 

If the price is right - I would buy a nice F35 look-a-like to keep in my hangar.  For home protection of course.

Edited January 8, 2020 by aviatoreb

[tigers2007]

Cliffs right. There is no way a skilled workforce can be mobilized to buck out the original all metal long bodies again if they can’t sell many of them. But we’ve discussed the renewed C150/152’s before and have seen a couple renewed Mooney’s pop up now and then. Maybe New Mooney Inc can continue with the parts biz and also do factory long and short body refurbs. I’d drop the manufacturing line completely.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DXB]

19 hours ago, chinoguym20 said:

You have no idea what went on within those walls, so I suggest you listen, rather than talk. You obviously think you know, but don’t. Mooney is dead, the spares business is not sustainable.  Let’s all move on. 

It would be nice to know what allows you to claim such knowledge of the inner workings of the factory and to express certainty on the complete demise of the company.   Although you might be both knowledgeable and correct, your anonymity doesn't confer much authority.   

[Steve B]

Piper intentionally discontinued the Saratoga PA-32R, high performance single retract, in 2009.  They had the same meager sales as Mooney does today.  They see a business model that supports  a low end - (trainers (single and twin) and fixed gear piston) and a high end - (pressurized singles (turboprop and piston)  and twins).  Apparently they concluded that there is no slot in the product line for slow selling loss making single retracts.  Business schools typically call this the "middle muddle".  

You make a good point. We think about the Mooneys as “sports cars of the piston 4 seaters” - but that analogy isn’t a perfect fit - turboprop planes have much better performance (see TBM lust) whereas sports cars are at the pinnacle of performance. And it’s a fair enough point that what is now the “M350” isn’t that much of a step up in price or piloting challenge above the NEW Ultras - it is almost as fast as an A (faster than O) and carries more (and without oxygen masks) - maybe you are right and there isn’t a logical spot between the Archer and the M series for buyers of new planes. (My used Ovation is in a different price zip code - cheaper than a new Archer). One could definitely make the argument that if you want more than an Archer and are buying new you may as well jump to a 6 seat, pressurized airplane. Or at least there isn’t room for more than one SR22 type in the market.

I admit that sometimes when planning trips and trying to fit people I do wish I had an M350 (or M600) - but at the time of buying an O3 was the limit for $ and what I thought I could handle as a next step as a pilot.

Glad I have mine and I guess when I’m in the market again (in 10+ years) I need a different plan than buying somebody’s used Ovation Ultra! Maybe I will get one with auto land!!!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RobertGary1]

1 minute ago, Hyett6420 said:

Just like they do with all thise iphone chargers etc.  

For sure as much as they can find them. Shoes are a big one that gets sent back too. Of course sometimes a phone charger might be hard to find in a box but as you imply an airplane is hard to hide.

 

-Robert

[Guest]

23 hours ago, Steve B said:

At some price, all the existing owners would probably kick in to form a coop.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You obviously aren’t a typical Mooney owner, many can’t afford beer and pizza at the Oshkosh gathering, how will they ever chip in to buy Mooney?

Clarence

[MooneyMitch]

3 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

You obviously aren’t a typical Mooney owner, many can’t afford beer and pizza at the Oshkosh gathering, how will they ever chip in to buy Mooney?

Clarence

Are we possibly referring to the CB's club again ?  LOL, wink, wink.......... 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

Someone mentioned India here. Mahindra still makes/sells Willy’s Jeeps in India (under permanent license from Jeep) and recently started selling them in the US as “off road vehicles” again under the Roxor name. Last I knew, Fiat Chrysler is suing them for selling Jeeps in the US without their permission but I doubt that got any traction. There is serious irony here too as Mahindra built a brand new assembly plant in Auburn Hills, MI to re-assemble the Roxors that are made in India, dissassembled, and containerized (Auburn Hills is Chrysler’s HQ city).
With the cheap cost of manufacturing, they could make all metal Mooney’s again at a fraction of the cost and zip the final fuselage halves and wings to the US. I really wonder if they could hit an economy of scale with the low volume. Mahindra can do it because it doesn’t cost them much to make the Roxors. Heck its only $14-16k for a brand new turbo diesel Willy’s Jeep versus $19-22k for a comparable side-by-side UTV.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Similar to the Airbus assembly plant down south.  It assembles airframe pieces made in Europe to beat tariffs and taxes.  Bombardier basically gave Airbus the C series jet to assemble them in the US to beat a 300% tariff when they were to be assembled in Canada.

Clarence

[Steve B]

You obviously aren’t a typical Mooney owner, many can’t afford beer and pizza at the Oshkosh gathering, how will they ever chip in to buy Mooney?
Clarence

So the TBM is right out, then?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alan Fox]

36 minutes ago, Texas Mooney said:

Not a surprise considering

• that his screen name is "ChinoGuy" and "M20"
• that he was the first to inform MS that Kerrville shut down on November, 9,
• that he started this topic,
• the first to inform us on November 16 that a notice was sent to employees informing them not to return on November 18 and that they were furloughed for an undetermined amount of time.
• that he made us aware of a large unpublicized Kerrville layoff in August and how many were actually remaining 
• that on November 25, he noted "the M10 we worked so hard on that Kerrville didn’t want"
• that he knew the number of employees at Chino and those who transferred to Kerrville (and how they were not accepted)

His comments seem to be accurate, fair and insightful regardless of where you are in "The Seven Steps of Dealing With Grief" -

1. Shock,
2. Denial,
3. Anger,
4. Bargaining,
5. Depression,
6. Testing, and
7. Acceptance.

He just happens to be at "Acceptance" while some are still in "Denial" and "Anger".

In any event he has great StreetCred on this topic.  

Than lets hope he gets a good job in the aviation industry...

[MikeOH]

22 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I figured it was viable  when I paid $7000 for two ailerons, and then I had to spend two years finding 2 serviceable M20J corrugated elevators, the factory was not making them at the time because their heat treater was broken. But they were like $6000 apiece list price.

Things like gear doors and belly skins will always be in demand from people gearing up the airplanes. I think those are over $1000 each now too. Order every piece in the catalog and build yourself a new Ovation out of it and then see how many millions that cost.. 

Sorry to hear the J parts are so hard to find at a salvage yard.

I had no trouble finding my elevator.

Edited January 9, 2020 by MikeOH

[ZuluZulu]

2 hours ago, Texas Mooney said:

Not a surprise considering

• that his screen name is "ChinoGuy" and "M20"
• that he was the first to inform MS that Kerrville shut down on November, 9,
• that he started this topic,
• the first to inform us on November 16 that a notice was sent to employees informing them not to return on November 18 and that they were furloughed for an undetermined amount of time.
• that he made us aware of a large unpublicized Kerrville layoff in August and how many were actually remaining 
• that on November 25, he noted "the M10 we worked so hard on that Kerrville didn’t want"
• that he knew the number of employees at Chino and those who transferred to Kerrville (and how they were not accepted)

His comments seem to be accurate, fair and insightful regardless of where you are in "The Seven Steps of Dealing With Grief" -

1. Shock,
2. Denial,
3. Anger,
4. Bargaining,
5. Depression,
6. Testing, and
7. Acceptance.

He just happens to be at "Acceptance" while some are still in "Denial" and "Anger".

In any event he has great StreetCred on this topic.  

Well now that his sockpuppet has weighed in, I’m convinced!

I’m kidding, but using your second ever post on a lecture to everyone else about “StreetCred” makes for quite an introduction.  Just a thought!

[carusoam]

Hmmmm...

Street cred...?

Another phrase for insider information...?

Sounds dangerous to leave such details in open view, no?

Often in companies... there is a non-disclosure agreement that gets signed... to prevent disclosing details like these...

Where is the upside to this?

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy the insider info...   just not much I can do with it...

Best regards,

-a-

[tmo]

Guys, just  "don't feed the trolls" and "carry on" :-)

In Polish we have this saying / proverb that a spoonful of wood tar will spoil a whole vat of honey.  I think the English version is about flies and ointment.  Let's not let them!

[Steve B]

Guys, just  "don't feed the trolls" and "carry on" :-)
In Polish we have this saying / proverb that a spoonful of wood tar will spoil a whole vat of honey.  I think the English version is about flies and ointment.  Let's not let them!

“One bad apple spoils the bunch”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DXB]

12 hours ago, Texas Mooney said:

Not a surprise considering

• that his screen name is "ChinoGuy" and "M20"
• that he was the first to inform MS that Kerrville shut down on November, 9,
• that he started this topic,
• the first to inform us on November 16 that a notice was sent to employees informing them not to return on November 18 and that they were furloughed for an undetermined amount of time.
• that he made us aware of a large unpublicized Kerrville layoff in August and how many were actually remaining 
• that on November 25, he noted "the M10 we worked so hard on that Kerrville didn’t want"
• that he knew the number of employees at Chino and those who transferred to Kerrville (and how they were not accepted)

His comments seem to be accurate, fair and insightful regardless of where you are in "The Seven Steps of Dealing With Grief" -

1. Shock,
2. Denial,
3. Anger,
4. Bargaining,
5. Depression,
6. Testing, and
7. Acceptance.

He just happens to be at "Acceptance" while some are still in "Denial" and "Anger".

In any event he has great StreetCred on this topic.  

Clearly he has prior involvement with the company as well as some remaining contacts within it.  But he also may fit the disgruntled former employee profile - hardly a reliable source of  "accurate, fair and insightful" judgments. I see no reason to rely on such an individual (particularly an anonymous one) for insight into the future of the company, which is the main thing most of us here care about in addition to the welfare of the current employees.  

[steingar]

Whatever our insider says or doesn't, the truth is fairly self evident.  The company is opening and closing the factory will nilly, treating the highly skilled employees like disposable assets.  Had I the money I'd not buy a new Mooney, no way.  No way to be certain I'd get an airplane after the check was cashed, no way to be certain there'd by anyone to honor the warranty.  I doubt they could even sell a handful of airplanes after all this.